Luger rear sight problem(?)

PRD1 · 02-13-2011, 01:32 PM

I just acquired a 7.65mm Luger pistol in fair-to- middling condition overall, and with a bore which is tired, but shootable (and it shoots/groups fairly well, all things considered). However... it groups a good foot low at ca. 15 yards. I could shorten the front sight, but would rather not. The rear sight, however, is of a configuration unfamiliar to me: it is very low and rounded, rather than raised in the form of a blade some distance above the rear toggle section, and the notch is fairly shallow. It does not appear that the rear sight/toggle have been altered, but the apparent difficulty with elevation causes me to wonder whether the rear sight and toggle segment are correct in this pistol. All the numbers appear to match in the pistol, and the only proofs are commercial - the receiver ring appears to have been 'scrubbed' and the pistol refinished early-on, and 'Made in Germany' appears on the right side of the upper receiver. I guess this may be a post WW1 rebuild, but am not familiar enough with Luger pistols to do otherwise than guess. I want to shoot the pistol, and don't think the collector world would be offended by my doing so, due to the overall condition of the gun, but think the current sight regulation is objectionable.
The actual thrust of my question is whether the rear sight and toggle section are correct for this pistol, and whether replacing that part with a standard P08 part might solve the elevation problem. If so, where might I best look for the replacement? I have dealt with Ralph Shattuck in the past, but, sadly, he is no longer with us.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

nukem556 · 02-13-2011, 02:07 PM

well, if you dont want to alter the front sight, and the back already has been (from your description, someone had to have ground it down), your only choice is ammo....if you load the 110gr M1 carbine bullet at around 850-900fps it should shoot a good bit higher....the slower heavier bullet is still in the barrel longer under recoil and will shoot higher, to some degree or another.....worth a try, if you reload

PRD1 · 02-13-2011, 02:36 PM

Thank you. I do reload, and was aware of the possibility of using a heavier bullet to somewhat overcome the excessively low POI. However, what I'd prefer to do is replace the rear toggle segment with a standard P08 type, which should help solve the problem.
The original rear sight may have been ground down, but, if so, it was probably done in conjunction with a rebuild, judging by the appearance of the remaining finish on the various parts, and it is not apparent that there ever was a P08-type rear sight on that toggle segment: the existing rounded rear sight is very neatly done. And, of course, the question remains as to why the original type rear sight might have been altered in the first place, as the existing arrangement makes for a pretty miserable sight picture.
It is a puzzlement...
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

DavidJayUden · 02-13-2011, 03:05 PM

I vote that you either carry the front sight high or replace the sight blade with a lower one. That can be un-done, filing on the rear sight can not.
But that's just mny $.02.
dju

Neil Young · 02-13-2011, 03:39 PM

Mike:
Can you post a photo of your rear sight so we can see what you are talking about. I've tried to use my imagination, but I come up with some wild pictures. Thanks.

Neil

PRD1 · 02-13-2011, 04:58 PM

I am unable to post pictures (lack of equipment and experience).
Perhaps a better description would help:
I've compared my unaltered P08 to the problem child, and the best way I can describe the appearance of the questioned item is by saying that you could achieve the effect by rounding-off the original rear sight so that its base was level with the humps at the rear of the upper receiver, then milling off the top rear-end of the toggle from about the location of the P08 sight blade, about 1/8" deep, leaving a 'step' in the back of the toggle, and filing a V-notch in the top of the remaining hump to form a rear sight.
Whatever was done to the toggle in the gun appears to have been part of the original assembly, since the remaining finish on all parts is a rust blue, and with similar amounts of wear from handling. The alteration of the toggle, if such it was, was neatly done before finishing the parts, so it appears original to the gun, rather than a later modification. What I can't fathom is WHY such a thing would have been done at all, since it results in a badly mismatched height combination between front and rear sights.
And for David: since the problem is an already too-short rear sight, filing on it would not have helped, while replacing it with a standard toggle and rear sight might well solve the problem. No solution I can think of involving the rear sight as it is now, short of making and attaching a new, taller rear sight (which I could do, if I have to), would solve the problem of excessively low POI.
Surely someone must have a spare rear toggle section?
Thanks for the interest and input.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

nukem556 · 02-13-2011, 05:10 PM

Mike...check with memeber Lugerdoc, or search Gunbroker's pistol parts page....they sell rear toggles on there all the time

Neil Young · 02-13-2011, 05:29 PM

From your description, it almost sounds like a sight notch cut into an artillery rear toggle link. That's probably not what it is, but I told you my imagination did some wild things.

Good luck.

Neil

sheepherder · 02-13-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Young

From your description, it almost sounds like a sight notch cut into an artillery rear toggle link.

That's what it sounds like to me, too. I have an artillery toggle with a notched rear sight screwed to it. And we have had pics of artillery Lugers with 4" barrels fitted without any rear sights at all. Plus at least one 4" artillery barrel w/arty rear sight...

So it's possible...even likely...

PRD1 · 02-13-2011, 08:37 PM

Thanks for the insights (grin!)!
I could easily believe the pistol might have originally been an artillery: I had already been pretty sure it was a post WW1 rebuild. Another feature I didn't mention earlier is that there is a 'notch' and small flat in the front of the receiver ring, leaving the barrel shoulder standing above the receiver ring at that point: I can easily imagine that cut being a clearance/seat for the back of the artillery rear sight.
Those crazy Germans would do anything to make a buck after the Great War, and the American buying public didn't know any better...
I will indeed check and see whether I can get a replacement toggle with proper rear sight, which should help solve the problem.
As I don't have a reference on Lugers, is there any place I could view photos of the various toggle assemblies?
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

sheepherder · 02-14-2011, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

Another feature I didn't mention earlier is that there is a 'notch' and small flat in the front of the receiver ring, leaving the barrel shoulder standing above the receiver ring at that point: I can easily imagine that cut being a clearance/seat for the back of the artillery rear sight.

That's exactly what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

As I don't have a reference on Lugers, is there any place I could view photos of the various toggle assemblies?

I only have a couple...maybe 5...

Others here have whole collections of toggle trains...

But here's an Erfurt Artillery toggle compared to an S/42 Army toggle...

PRD1 · 02-14-2011, 09:35 AM

Thanks! Mystery solved.
The photo makes it perfectly clear that what the Squareheads did was simply mill a cut across the back of the Artillery toggle and notch the top of the hump. What a bunch of wild and crazy guys!
The cobbled-up toggle is a DWM, and the other half of my Luger 'collection' is a 1937 S/42.
Appreciate your assistance - now I just need to round-up a new toggle.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

PRD1 · 02-15-2011, 06:01 PM

I contacted the Lugerdoc today: he has exactly what I need, and my letter and check go out with the morning's mail. I'll let you all know how this turns out!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

sheepherder · 02-15-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

I contacted the Lugerdoc today: he has exactly what I need, and my letter and check go out with the morning's mail. I'll let you all know how this turns out!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

Hmmm...Did you buy just the rear toggle (the one with the sight), or work out a trade for a complete train???

I hope you're disassembling the toggles; I haven't tried it yet, but I'd love to see your pictorial tutorial on disassembling a toggle assembly...

PRD1 · 02-15-2011, 09:19 PM

Boy, did you come to the wrong shop! I lack both equipment and expertise for making and posting photos.
However, I did order just the rearmost toggle segment (which features the cocking knobs AND the needed rear sight, and discussed the operation with Lugerdoc, who confirmed what I believed was the proper procedure:
Drive out the small retaining pin at the left-hand end of the rear pivot pin (upward), then press or drive out the pivot pin itself; right-to-left - reassemble in reverse order - apply creative language as and whenever necessary.
I've got hammers, punches, and, should it prove necessary, an arbor press, so am anticipating a successful operation. I'll let you know...
In addition, I spent some time this afternoon disassembling, cleaning and reassembling one of my wood-based Luger magazines, according to the instructions provided by G.T. (you would not BELIEVE the amount of corruption and gunk which came out of that magazine): the patient survived the operation and I only needed one medium bandaid. My advice: send your magazines to G.T.!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

sheepherder · 02-16-2011, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRD1

Drive out the small retaining pin at the left-hand end of the rear pivot pin (upward), then press or drive out the pivot pin itself; right-to-left - reassemble in reverse order

My, that does sound simple! Please let us [me mostly] know how well that works out!

And let us [me] know how many other tools/pin drivers/pin blocks/etc you made to make the process easier...

PRD1 · 02-16-2011, 11:38 AM

Will do!
I hope not to have to fabricate anything I don't already have, but that may be a forlorn hope...
In barrelmaking and gunsmithing you nearly ALWAYS have to make something before you can complete any job at all.
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

sheepherder · 02-16-2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prd1

in barrelmaking and gunsmithing you nearly always have to make something before you can complete any job at all.

+ 1

PRD1 · 03-01-2011, 01:12 PM

I received the replacement rear toggle section (with rear sight) from the Lugerdoc: the turn-around was fast and the part was exactly as described.
Installation went without a hitch - the original part was removed and replaced with the new one - no difficulty at all was experienced in driving out the original pins or replacing them in the toggle assembly. The toggle fits and functions perfectly in the pistol.
I shot it this morning, and was very pleased! The POI, previously about a foot low at 15 yards is now about 3" high at the same distance, which accords well with my previous experience with Luger pistols. The front sight needed to be driven to the left a bit to center the group horizontally (it was already off-center the other way, so it is now closer to center than originally). The final 5 rounds went into just about 1", which is outstanding accuracy, considering the somewhat tired bore, less-than ideal sight picture and typically squashy trigger pull.
If I work-up some ambition, I may fabricate a rear sight for the original, altered Artillery toggle section, but there is no urgency...
In summary, I'm very happy with the outcome! Thanks all around for the good advice, and special thanks to the Lugerdoc!
PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-13-2011, 01:32 PM	#1
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Luger rear sight problem(?) I just acquired a 7.65mm Luger pistol in fair-to- middling condition overall, and with a bore which is tired, but shootable (and it shoots/groups fairly well, all things considered). However... it groups a good foot low at ca. 15 yards. I could shorten the front sight, but would rather not. The rear sight, however, is of a configuration unfamiliar to me: it is very low and rounded, rather than raised in the form of a blade some distance above the rear toggle section, and the notch is fairly shallow. It does not appear that the rear sight/toggle have been altered, but the apparent difficulty with elevation causes me to wonder whether the rear sight and toggle segment are correct in this pistol. All the numbers appear to match in the pistol, and the only proofs are commercial - the receiver ring appears to have been 'scrubbed' and the pistol refinished early-on, and 'Made in Germany' appears on the right side of the upper receiver. I guess this may be a post WW1 rebuild, but am not familiar enough with Luger pistols to do otherwise than guess. I want to shoot the pistol, and don't think the collector world would be offended by my doing so, due to the overall condition of the gun, but think the current sight regulation is objectionable. The actual thrust of my question is whether the rear sight and toggle section are correct for this pistol, and whether replacing that part with a standard P08 part might solve the elevation problem. If so, where might I best look for the replacement? I have dealt with Ralph Shattuck in the past, but, sadly, he is no longer with us. Any assistance would be appreciated. PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-13-2011, 02:36 PM	#3
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	nukem556: Thank you. I do reload, and was aware of the possibility of using a heavier bullet to somewhat overcome the excessively low POI. However, what I'd prefer to do is replace the rear toggle segment with a standard P08 type, which should help solve the problem. The original rear sight may have been ground down, but, if so, it was probably done in conjunction with a rebuild, judging by the appearance of the remaining finish on the various parts, and it is not apparent that there ever was a P08-type rear sight on that toggle segment: the existing rounded rear sight is very neatly done. And, of course, the question remains as to why the original type rear sight might have been altered in the first place, as the existing arrangement makes for a pretty miserable sight picture. It is a puzzlement... PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-13-2011, 03:39 PM	#5
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 548 Thanks: 566 Thanked 443 Times in 168 Posts	Mike: Can you post a photo of your rear sight so we can see what you are talking about. I've tried to use my imagination, but I come up with some wild pictures. Thanks. Neil __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

02-13-2011, 04:58 PM	#6
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	David and Neil: I am unable to post pictures (lack of equipment and experience). Perhaps a better description would help: I've compared my unaltered P08 to the problem child, and the best way I can describe the appearance of the questioned item is by saying that you could achieve the effect by rounding-off the original rear sight so that its base was level with the humps at the rear of the upper receiver, then milling off the top rear-end of the toggle from about the location of the P08 sight blade, about 1/8" deep, leaving a 'step' in the back of the toggle, and filing a V-notch in the top of the remaining hump to form a rear sight. Whatever was done to the toggle in the gun appears to have been part of the original assembly, since the remaining finish on all parts is a rust blue, and with similar amounts of wear from handling. The alteration of the toggle, if such it was, was neatly done before finishing the parts, so it appears original to the gun, rather than a later modification. What I can't fathom is WHY such a thing would have been done at all, since it results in a badly mismatched height combination between front and rear sights. And for David: since the problem is an already too-short rear sight, filing on it would not have helped, while replacing it with a standard toggle and rear sight might well solve the problem. No solution I can think of involving the rear sight as it is now, short of making and attaching a new, taller rear sight (which I could do, if I have to), would solve the problem of excessively low POI. Surely someone must have a spare rear toggle section? Thanks for the interest and input. PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-13-2011, 05:29 PM	#8
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 548 Thanks: 566 Thanked 443 Times in 168 Posts	From your description, it almost sounds like a sight notch cut into an artillery rear toggle link. That's probably not what it is, but I told you my imagination did some wild things. Good luck. Neil __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

02-13-2011, 02:07 PM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	well, if you dont want to alter the front sight, and the back already has been (from your description, someone had to have ground it down), your only choice is ammo....if you load the 110gr M1 carbine bullet at around 850-900fps it should shoot a good bit higher....the slower heavier bullet is still in the barrel longer under recoil and will shoot higher, to some degree or another.....worth a try, if you reload

02-13-2011, 03:05 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I vote that you either carry the front sight high or replace the sight blade with a lower one. That can be un-done, filing on the rear sight can not. But that's just mny $.02. dju

02-13-2011, 05:10 PM	#7
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Mike...check with memeber Lugerdoc, or search Gunbroker's pistol parts page....they sell rear toggles on there all the time

02-13-2011, 08:37 PM	#10
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	nukem556,Neil, Postino... Thanks for the insights (grin!)! I could easily believe the pistol might have originally been an artillery: I had already been pretty sure it was a post WW1 rebuild. Another feature I didn't mention earlier is that there is a 'notch' and small flat in the front of the receiver ring, leaving the barrel shoulder standing above the receiver ring at that point: I can easily imagine that cut being a clearance/seat for the back of the artillery rear sight. Those crazy Germans would do anything to make a buck after the Great War, and the American buying public didn't know any better... I will indeed check and see whether I can get a replacement toggle with proper rear sight, which should help solve the problem. As I don't have a reference on Lugers, is there any place I could view photos of the various toggle assemblies? PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-14-2011, 09:35 AM	#12
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Postino: Thanks! Mystery solved. The photo makes it perfectly clear that what the Squareheads did was simply mill a cut across the back of the Artillery toggle and notch the top of the hump. What a bunch of wild and crazy guys! The cobbled-up toggle is a DWM, and the other half of my Luger 'collection' is a 1937 S/42. Appreciate your assistance - now I just need to round-up a new toggle. PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-15-2011, 06:01 PM	#13
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Update: I contacted the Lugerdoc today: he has exactly what I need, and my letter and check go out with the morning's mail. I'll let you all know how this turns out! PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-15-2011, 09:19 PM	#15
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Pictorial tutorial!!!??? Boy, did you come to the wrong shop! I lack both equipment and expertise for making and posting photos. However, I did order just the rearmost toggle segment (which features the cocking knobs AND the needed rear sight, and discussed the operation with Lugerdoc, who confirmed what I believed was the proper procedure: Drive out the small retaining pin at the left-hand end of the rear pivot pin (upward), then press or drive out the pivot pin itself; right-to-left - reassemble in reverse order - apply creative language as and whenever necessary. I've got hammers, punches, and, should it prove necessary, an arbor press, so am anticipating a successful operation. I'll let you know... In addition, I spent some time this afternoon disassembling, cleaning and reassembling one of my wood-based Luger magazines, according to the instructions provided by G.T. (you would not BELIEVE the amount of corruption and gunk which came out of that magazine): the patient survived the operation and I only needed one medium bandaid. My advice: send your magazines to G.T.! PRD1 - mhb - Mike

02-16-2011, 11:38 AM	#17
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Postino: Will do! I hope not to have to fabricate anything I don't already have, but that may be a forlorn hope... In barrelmaking and gunsmithing you nearly ALWAYS have to make something before you can complete any job at all. PRD1 - mhb - Mike

03-01-2011, 01:12 PM	#19
PRD1 User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: S.E. AZ Posts: 69 Thanks: 18 Thanked 32 Times in 8 Posts	Followup... I received the replacement rear toggle section (with rear sight) from the Lugerdoc: the turn-around was fast and the part was exactly as described. Installation went without a hitch - the original part was removed and replaced with the new one - no difficulty at all was experienced in driving out the original pins or replacing them in the toggle assembly. The toggle fits and functions perfectly in the pistol. I shot it this morning, and was very pleased! The POI, previously about a foot low at 15 yards is now about 3" high at the same distance, which accords well with my previous experience with Luger pistols. The front sight needed to be driven to the left a bit to center the group horizontally (it was already off-center the other way, so it is now closer to center than originally). The final 5 rounds went into just about 1", which is outstanding accuracy, considering the somewhat tired bore, less-than ideal sight picture and typically squashy trigger pull. If I work-up some ambition, I may fabricate a rear sight for the original, altered Artillery toggle section, but there is no urgency... In summary, I'm very happy with the outcome! Thanks all around for the good advice, and special thanks to the Lugerdoc! PRD1 - mhb - Mike