German military ammo velocity

Sgt Art · 04-03-2004, 03:46 PM

What was the muzzle velocity of German military ammo during both wars? One source states 115 grain bullet at 1,400 fps. I was thinking the Germans used 124 grain bullets.

TIA

Lonnie Zimmerman · 04-03-2004, 11:24 PM

Sgt Art; I was told by Lapua that the ammo they made for the P.08 was 1045 fps and is still their standard load.
Lonnie

Johnny C. Kitchens · 04-04-2004, 12:47 AM

I have a listing for some 1943 German ammo that used a 98gr bullet and did reach a velocity average of 1401fps...

Sieger · 04-04-2004, 01:16 PM

Hi Art:

The pre-WWI DWM Owner's Manual lists the velocity of the 123gr, ammo at around 1075fps.

There seems to be some variation in the methods used then verses now in testing velocity. Years ago I shot some original DWM commercial ammo and it tested in spec at an average of around 1050fps or so (if memory serves).

I'm going to be testing some WWI military ammo shortly, and will post my results here.

Sieger

Herb · 04-04-2004, 04:10 PM

Art, in Fred Datig's book 'The Luger Pistol' on page 198 he gives the following info; 9m/m Luger Bullet Weight 124 grains with a velocity of 1250 fps. Headstamp was DWM 480C. Unfortunately he does not tie this info to either WWI or WW2.

Frank · 04-04-2004, 04:36 PM

This is from the "For What it's Worth Department". I have recorded (and I can't remember where I found the data) the original Georg Luger P.08 Patrone Cartridge Bullet was a Truncated Cone, Weight was 8 grammes (123.44 grains) and had a muzzle velocity of 327 m/sec (1072.8 ft/sec).

Because of the spelling of grams, my guess it was a Walter Book!!

Sieger · 04-04-2004, 10:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Herb:
Art, in Fred Datig's book 'The Luger Pistol' on page 198 he gives the following info; 9m/m Luger Bullet Weight 124 grains with a velocity of 1250 fps. Headstamp was DWM 480C. Unfortunately he does not tie this info to either WWI or WW2.<hr /></blockquote>Herb:

I've heard Datig sited before on this subject, but have never found figures like this in any of the original German texts I've examined.

The 480C round you mention is the same one Frank is also discussing, as it was the original DWM TC 9mm round.

Again, I should be able to test some original ammo in a month or so. This won't really be conclusive either, because of the age of this ammo, but it should at least answer some of my basic questions regarding it.

Sieger

Vlim · 04-05-2004, 09:25 AM

Hi,

John Walter lists some info in his 1977 'Luger' book:

8.0 gram 9mm -> 345 meters per second in P08
(123grain -> 1131ft/s)

8.0 gram 9mm -> 355 meters per second in M04
(123grain -> 1164ft/s)

Sieger · 04-05-2004, 01:00 PM

Hi:

From Joachim Goetz text "Die Pistole 08" copywrite 1985 (German Text).

He has written a full chapter on die Pistolenpatrone 08, complete with some reloading suggestions (approximately 10 pages of test).

Here is what he sites as the original specs:
Stand 1908 (Period 1908)

8 gram projectile from a 100 mm barrel/327m per second.

Sieger

Sieger · 04-05-2004, 01:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
Hi,

John Walter lists some info in his 1977 'Luger' book:

8.0 gram 9mm -> 345 meters per second in P08
(123grain -> 1131ft/s)

8.0 gram 9mm -> 355 meters per second in M04
(123grain -> 1164ft/s)<hr /></blockquote>Hi:

I have a 1986 copywrite version of this book. In it he discusses ammo, but I can't find the specs. you have sited.

Would you give me a page site please?

Sieger

unspellable · 04-05-2004, 08:27 PM

As some of you are aware, I have been researching the original ballistics. One of the problems is the method of velocity measurement then as opposed to now.

The oldest known method is the ballistic pendalum. I performed this experiment as my college physics project. (Here, I am giving away my age. Fancy packing a revolver to the physics lab today!) Carefully done, this method can be accurate to within 3 or 4% and measures the velocity about six feet from the muzzle as is done today with a chronograph.

At the turn of the century, around the time of the Parabellum's youth, the method involved the bullet breaking a tape five feet (Or roughly the same distace if working in the metric system.) from the muzzle and breaking a second tape 55 feet from the muzzle. The time interval was measured by a falling weight. This method was quite accurate, but one must realize that what it measured is the average velocity from 5 feet to 55 feet. If muzzle velocity specifically is desired it must be estinmmated from the data.

Vlim · 04-06-2004, 08:54 AM

Sieger,

On the 1977 edition on page 25 there is a list of calibres, velocities, etc... of a number of period guns including the P08 and the M04

Darth 44 · 12-02-2004, 01:54 PM

What`s the BC of that 123grains bullet?

Regards

Thor · 12-02-2004, 02:21 PM

Hornady lists a BC of .145 for their 124 gr FMJ round nose bullet.

Darth 44 · 12-02-2004, 03:27 PM

Thanx Thor
I asked that question b`coz I`ve always been puzzled with the discrepancy on 9mm FMJ bullets`
BCs.
Examples:
Sierra 125grs FMJ----.160
Win. USA 124grs FMJ--.167
Federal 124grs FMJ---.154
Remington 124grs FMJ-.184
Hornady 124 FMJ RN---.145
Hornady 124 FMJ FP---.174

And I thought they`re all patterned after the good ol` 8 gramm Ogivalgeschoss,ja? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

On a side note,take a look at those Hornadys How come a Flat point bullet has better BC than a round nose bullet? Comments?

kidvett · 12-02-2004, 11:49 PM

I am amazed to see that no one got to the range with a chronograph, some vintage ammo & a P08 !!

It would be interesting to compare ``live results`` with the specs stated in the various references........

Cold weather up here makes it impossible for me at this time to do such velocity testing.....

I recently ran some ``balistic vest testing`` a little while ago. Part of a work project on some Level II & IIA LE Vests. I went into the ``vintage ammo``bin to include some ``REAL`` 9mm ammo.......

2 rounds caught my attention, headstamps read:

dnh St+ 8 43
kam St= 20 43

One bullet lost......the other recovered one weights 99.5 gr, has a steel jacket but velocity is unknown. Quite an impressive performance in the testing........

I know it doesnt help much on the velocity issue........

MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

04-03-2004, 03:46 PM	#1
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	German military ammo velocity What was the muzzle velocity of German military ammo during both wars? One source states 115 grain bullet at 1,400 fps. I was thinking the Germans used 124 grain bullets. TIA

04-03-2004, 11:24 PM	#2
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Sgt Art; I was told by Lapua that the ammo they made for the P.08 was 1045 fps and is still their standard load. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

04-04-2004, 12:47 AM	#3
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I have a listing for some 1943 German ammo that used a 98gr bullet and did reach a velocity average of 1401fps... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

04-04-2004, 04:10 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Art, in Fred Datig's book 'The Luger Pistol' on page 198 he gives the following info; 9m/m Luger Bullet Weight 124 grains with a velocity of 1250 fps. Headstamp was DWM 480C. Unfortunately he does not tie this info to either WWI or WW2. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

04-04-2004, 10:44 PM	#7
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Herb: <strong>Art, in Fred Datig's book 'The Luger Pistol' on page 198 he gives the following info; 9m/m Luger Bullet Weight 124 grains with a velocity of 1250 fps. Headstamp was DWM 480C. Unfortunately he does not tie this info to either WWI or WW2.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Herb: I've heard Datig sited before on this subject, but have never found figures like this in any of the original German texts I've examined. The 480C round you mention is the same one Frank is also discussing, as it was the original DWM TC 9mm round. Again, I should be able to test some original ammo in a month or so. This won't really be conclusive either, because of the age of this ammo, but it should at least answer some of my basic questions regarding it. Sieger

04-04-2004, 01:16 PM	#4
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi Art: The pre-WWI DWM Owner's Manual lists the velocity of the 123gr, ammo at around 1075fps. There seems to be some variation in the methods used then verses now in testing velocity. Years ago I shot some original DWM commercial ammo and it tested in spec at an average of around 1050fps or so (if memory serves). I'm going to be testing some WWI military ammo shortly, and will post my results here. Sieger

04-04-2004, 04:36 PM	#6
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	This is from the "For What it's Worth Department". I have recorded (and I can't remember where I found the data) the original Georg Luger P.08 Patrone Cartridge Bullet was a Truncated Cone, Weight was 8 grammes (123.44 grains) and had a muzzle velocity of 327 m/sec (1072.8 ft/sec). Because of the spelling of grams, my guess it was a Walter Book!!

04-05-2004, 09:25 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,047 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,947 Times in 1,198 Posts	Hi, John Walter lists some info in his 1977 'Luger' book: 8.0 gram 9mm -> 345 meters per second in P08 (123grain -> 1131ft/s) 8.0 gram 9mm -> 355 meters per second in M04 (123grain -> 1164ft/s)

04-05-2004, 01:00 PM	#9
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi: From Joachim Goetz text "Die Pistole 08" copywrite 1985 (German Text). He has written a full chapter on die Pistolenpatrone 08, complete with some reloading suggestions (approximately 10 pages of test). Here is what he sites as the original specs: Stand 1908 (Period 1908) 8 gram projectile from a 100 mm barrel/327m per second. Sieger

04-05-2004, 01:02 PM	#10
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren: <strong>Hi, John Walter lists some info in his 1977 'Luger' book: 8.0 gram 9mm -> 345 meters per second in P08 (123grain -> 1131ft/s) 8.0 gram 9mm -> 355 meters per second in M04 (123grain -> 1164ft/s)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi: I have a 1986 copywrite version of this book. In it he discusses ammo, but I can't find the specs. you have sited. Would you give me a page site please? Sieger

04-05-2004, 08:27 PM	#11
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	As some of you are aware, I have been researching the original ballistics. One of the problems is the method of velocity measurement then as opposed to now. The oldest known method is the ballistic pendalum. I performed this experiment as my college physics project. (Here, I am giving away my age. Fancy packing a revolver to the physics lab today!) Carefully done, this method can be accurate to within 3 or 4% and measures the velocity about six feet from the muzzle as is done today with a chronograph. At the turn of the century, around the time of the Parabellum's youth, the method involved the bullet breaking a tape five feet (Or roughly the same distace if working in the metric system.) from the muzzle and breaking a second tape 55 feet from the muzzle. The time interval was measured by a falling weight. This method was quite accurate, but one must realize that what it measured is the average velocity from 5 feet to 55 feet. If muzzle velocity specifically is desired it must be estinmmated from the data.

04-06-2004, 08:54 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,047 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,947 Times in 1,198 Posts	Sieger, On the 1977 edition on page 25 there is a list of calibres, velocities, etc... of a number of period guns including the P08 and the M04

12-02-2004, 01:54 PM	#13
Darth 44 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What`s the BC of that 123grains bullet? Regards __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed-unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" James Madison, The Federalist Papers

12-02-2004, 02:21 PM	#14
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Hornady lists a BC of .145 for their 124 gr FMJ round nose bullet. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-02-2004, 03:27 PM	#15
Darth 44 User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanx Thor I asked that question b`coz I`ve always been puzzled with the discrepancy on 9mm FMJ bullets` BCs. Examples: Sierra 125grs FMJ----.160 Win. USA 124grs FMJ--.167 Federal 124grs FMJ---.154 Remington 124grs FMJ-.184 Hornady 124 FMJ RN---.145 Hornady 124 FMJ FP---.174 And I thought they`re all patterned after the good ol` 8 gramm Ogivalgeschoss,ja? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> On a side note,take a look at those Hornadys How come a Flat point bullet has better BC than a round nose bullet? Comments? __________________ "Americans have the right and advantages of being armed-unlike the citizens of the countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms" James Madison, The Federalist Papers

12-02-2004, 11:49 PM	#16
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I am amazed to see that no one got to the range with a chronograph, some vintage ammo & a P08 !! It would be interesting to compare ``live results`` with the specs stated in the various references........ Cold weather up here makes it impossible for me at this time to do such velocity testing..... I recently ran some ``balistic vest testing`` a little while ago. Part of a work project on some Level II & IIA LE Vests. I went into the ``vintage ammo``bin to include some ``REAL`` 9mm ammo....... 2 rounds caught my attention, headstamps read: dnh St+ 8 43 kam St= 20 43 One bullet lost......the other recovered one weights 99.5 gr, has a steel jacket but velocity is unknown. Quite an impressive performance in the testing........ I know it doesnt help much on the velocity issue........ MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />