Byf 41 all matchinf?

Mibit911 · 09-30-2022, 01:48 PM

So I have a byf 41 luger with all parts matching except for the toggle pin. I was told the gun was all matching when I got it and inspected every part according to a list I read. All parts match except there is no stamp visible on rear toggle pin? Is this normal or is the gun non matching? If not I might have some words with the dealer. Also this dealer is been in buisness 40 years and has sold me alot of guns all of which have usually checked out. So I'm a bit worried.

Mac Cat · 09-30-2022, 06:56 PM

Hallock and Kant says the 41 byf (and 42) should have a numbered rear axel pin (p. 242).

They described small parts in 4 groups:

Group 1: Trigger, Safety Lever, Takedown lever, Hold Open, Rear axle pin, Side plate, Sear bar, Front toggle link, and Rear toggle link.

Group 2: Magazine release and Ejector spring

Group 3: Firing pin (flutted)

Group 4: Coupling link

Vlim · 10-01-2022, 01:14 PM

I would not worry too much. But try to get a discount.

Unnumbered pins are not uncommon and sometimes you find nice replacements:

Mibit911 · 10-01-2022, 06:21 PM

Well see the problem is I was told the gun was matching qhen I got it. He told me not to worry about it sometimes stamps got skipped on toggles and other parts just check the Jan luger forums they would know. And I said I did already and he was not willing to discount any future purchases or anything even though I've done alot of buisness with this guy. So now idk how to feel.

Mibit911 · 10-01-2022, 06:22 PM

Everything else matches and it's a nice blackwidow with bakelite grips and shoots perfect but that toggle pin issue now makes me feel a bit wronged

Mibit911 · 10-01-2022, 06:23 PM

The other code 42 he had that I looked at is also marked as all matching and it's toggle is stamped. This was the other gun I was co.paring against when I purchased this luger, but I went with the byf 41 instead for 200 more than the Russian captured x marked 42

Vlim · 10-01-2022, 06:28 PM

It all depends a bit on what you paid for it.
There is no such thing as a Black Widow. Just a marketing ploy to sell lugers with black plastic grips, which is all they are.

Doubs · 10-01-2022, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

It all depends a bit on what you paid for it.
There is no such thing as a Black Widow. Just a marketing ploy to sell lugers with black plastic grips, which is all they are.

Vlim is correct about the "Black Widow" term. It was invented by a well known Luger collector and salesman named Ralph Shattock many years ago because the plastic grip Mauser Lugers weren't selling. The name caught on and now the black plastic grips are desirable to some people. The name has no basis in fact.

gunbugs · 10-02-2022, 12:56 AM

You did OK. The un-numbered toggle pin isn't really that big of a deal. They were replaced on occasion. Don't stress over it. Enjoy the gun, it looks pretty good to me. And, in the end, you have learned something. The knowledge is just as valuable as the gun. You can ask on the "wanted" forum and see if someone has a matching numbered axle pin. 1 in 100 chance. Pretty good odds, really.

Mibit911 · 10-02-2022, 11:48 AM

I am curious about the grips though. And I thought black widow also was used because byf 41 and 42 have no visible parts in the white

Mibit911 · 10-02-2022, 11:50 AM

Iran the gun has a shiny unputted bore and has shot 100 rounds with no malfunctions so it's a great shooter, except for the slightly squishy trigger, it has no import marks and is an early q block, but I'm not sure about the vertical black grips I think they are Russian. IT is original bluing with oxidation visible under bright light and I paid 1600. It was my first luger but having learned alot more now im sure I paid too much. Although I'm happy with the gun

Mibit911 · 10-02-2022, 11:53 AM

There is no Russian captured marks or force matched parts except for the unmarked toggle pin which I guess could be factory original that missed stamping, but that's very unlikely. The pin is a nice snug perfect fit not too tight and doesn't fall out either.

Vlim · 10-02-2022, 11:59 AM

I think you overpaid for what is basically a reblued Eastern European capture gun with Russian grips.

A more realistic value would be 1000 to 1200 these days.

Edward Tinker · 10-02-2022, 02:48 PM

A pin with the number is one of the easier numbered part you can find. But the dealer refusing to help?

How long has it been since you bought it?

Mac Cat · 10-02-2022, 03:01 PM

Hopefully your gun dealer will do you better, next time.
Your luger sounds like a good shooter, so enjoy it and learn a lot from it.
Don't buy into the "Black Widow" nonsense - very common and always overpriced.

spangy · 10-02-2022, 10:16 PM

When I decide to acquire a Luger my primary concern is 'do I love this gun ??' ... once I can answer that question with a yes then I ask can I live with its cost ??

I am 71 years old and I don't have all my OEM parts so I don't get bent out of shape if a 100 yr old + pistol has seen some rough days too. To me that's life and I don't have the time, energy and $$ to find that 'perfect' gun that most likely doesn't exist anyway.

Our hobby attracts all sorts but I am so glad that my collecting motives are simple and pure ... that is to say the enjoyment of admiring the beautiful work of brilliantly conceived engineering art that is 'The Luger'.

I love a numbers matching gun as well as the next man but it doesn't dictate whether I can truly enjoy the gun or not ... its the beauty I collect not the 'bragging rights'. I don't concern myself with the 'what's it worth' routine either because in truth a gun is worth what any man is willing to pay for it.

Luger's are a gift from the creator IMO as each has an individual soul in its own right and like our own fingerprints may change over time while remaining true to that individual soul.

Many of us here @ lugerforum speak of our collections as family and I cherish my 'family' whether the toggle pin is marked or not.

day late · 10-08-2022, 12:40 PM

It certainly is a lot prettier than mine. With the way that pin comes out, I can easily see having to have a few replacements around. It wouldn't surprise me to find out many Lugers have either mis-matched or missing numbers on that pin.

mrerick · 10-09-2022, 11:49 AM

Your dealer helps prove the motto, "believe the gun, forget the story"...

It takes time to develop background and skill when collecting Lugers. The best approach is to start by acquiring the latest and most comprehensive books. I help here by publishing our FAQ PDF document, free to download and full of good reference information.

Your dealer is selling his stock, not reflecting information known by collectors that have studied Lugers.

Sieger · 01-28-2023, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spangy

When I decide to acquire a Luger my primary concern is 'do I love this gun ??' ... once I can answer that question with a yes then I ask can I live with its cost ??

I am 71 years old and I don't have all my OEM parts so I don't get bent out of shape if a 100 yr old + pistol has seen some rough days too. To me that's life and I don't have the time, energy and $$ to find that 'perfect' gun that most likely doesn't exist anyway.

Our hobby attracts all sorts but I am so glad that my collecting motives are simple and pure ... that is to say the enjoyment of admiring the beautiful work of brilliantly conceived engineering art that is 'The Luger'.

I love a numbers matching gun as well as the next man but it doesn't dictate whether I can truly enjoy the gun or not ... its the beauty I collect not the 'bragging rights'. I don't concern myself with the 'what's it worth' routine either because in truth a gun is worth what any man is willing to pay for it.

Luger's are a gift from the creator IMO as each has an individual soul in its own right and like our own fingerprints may change over time while remaining true to that individual soul.

Many of us here @ lugerforum speak of our collections as family and I cherish my 'family' whether the toggle pin is marked or not.

Sorry,

I don't agree with this "logic" at all!!

I agree with exactly what Vlim said.

I think the buyer was a victim of fraud in the inducement and should demand a proportionate refund based on actual fair market value.

Any other "logic" seems to me to be lacking in reality.

I have been victimized, on more than one occasion, when buying used firearms. Letting the thief get away with it will only embolden his activity more!!

Sieger

Stu · 01-29-2023, 12:48 PM

It's a nice looking gun. I have one that's the same, but the axle pin does match. If anyone has any in the same condition I have that 1000 - 1200 ready to spend !

09-30-2022, 01:48 PM	#1
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	Byf 41 all matchinf? So I have a byf 41 luger with all parts matching except for the toggle pin. I was told the gun was all matching when I got it and inspected every part according to a list I read. All parts match except there is no stamp visible on rear toggle pin? Is this normal or is the gun non matching? If not I might have some words with the dealer. Also this dealer is been in buisness 40 years and has sold me alot of guns all of which have usually checked out. So I'm a bit worried.

09-30-2022, 06:56 PM	#2
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	Hallock and Kant says the 41 byf (and 42) should have a numbered rear axel pin (p. 242). They described small parts in 4 groups: Group 1: Trigger, Safety Lever, Takedown lever, Hold Open, Rear axle pin, Side plate, Sear bar, Front toggle link, and Rear toggle link. Group 2: Magazine release and Ejector spring Group 3: Firing pin (flutted) Group 4: Coupling link Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Mac Cat; 09-30-2022 at 06:56 PM. Reason: spelling

10-01-2022, 01:14 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	I would not worry too much. But try to get a discount. Unnumbered pins are not uncommon and sometimes you find nice replacements: Attached Thumbnails

10-02-2022, 11:48 AM	#10
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	I am curious about the grips though. And I thought black widow also was used because byf 41 and 42 have no visible parts in the white Attached Thumbnails

10-02-2022, 02:48 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	A pin with the number is one of the easier numbered part you can find. But the dealer refusing to help? How long has it been since you bought it? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-01-2022, 06:21 PM	#4
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	Well see the problem is I was told the gun was matching qhen I got it. He told me not to worry about it sometimes stamps got skipped on toggles and other parts just check the Jan luger forums they would know. And I said I did already and he was not willing to discount any future purchases or anything even though I've done alot of buisness with this guy. So now idk how to feel.

10-01-2022, 06:22 PM	#5
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	Everything else matches and it's a nice blackwidow with bakelite grips and shoots perfect but that toggle pin issue now makes me feel a bit wronged

10-01-2022, 06:23 PM	#6
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	The other code 42 he had that I looked at is also marked as all matching and it's toggle is stamped. This was the other gun I was co.paring against when I purchased this luger, but I went with the byf 41 instead for 200 more than the Russian captured x marked 42

10-01-2022, 06:28 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	It all depends a bit on what you paid for it. There is no such thing as a Black Widow. Just a marketing ploy to sell lugers with black plastic grips, which is all they are.

10-02-2022, 12:56 AM	#9
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 660 Thanks: 366 Thanked 1,179 Times in 395 Posts	You did OK. The un-numbered toggle pin isn't really that big of a deal. They were replaced on occasion. Don't stress over it. Enjoy the gun, it looks pretty good to me. And, in the end, you have learned something. The knowledge is just as valuable as the gun. You can ask on the "wanted" forum and see if someone has a matching numbered axle pin. 1 in 100 chance. Pretty good odds, really.

10-02-2022, 11:50 AM	#11
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	Iran the gun has a shiny unputted bore and has shot 100 rounds with no malfunctions so it's a great shooter, except for the slightly squishy trigger, it has no import marks and is an early q block, but I'm not sure about the vertical black grips I think they are Russian. IT is original bluing with oxidation visible under bright light and I paid 1600. It was my first luger but having learned alot more now im sure I paid too much. Although I'm happy with the gun

10-02-2022, 11:53 AM	#12
Mibit911 User Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 51 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 10 Posts	There is no Russian captured marks or force matched parts except for the unmarked toggle pin which I guess could be factory original that missed stamping, but that's very unlikely. The pin is a nice snug perfect fit not too tight and doesn't fall out either.

10-02-2022, 11:59 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,989 Times in 1,205 Posts	I think you overpaid for what is basically a reblued Eastern European capture gun with Russian grips. A more realistic value would be 1000 to 1200 these days.

10-02-2022, 03:01 PM	#15
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 733 Thanks: 2,100 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	Hopefully your gun dealer will do you better, next time. Your luger sounds like a good shooter, so enjoy it and learn a lot from it. Don't buy into the "Black Widow" nonsense - very common and always overpriced.

10-02-2022, 10:16 PM	#16
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	When I decide to acquire a Luger my primary concern is 'do I love this gun ??' ... once I can answer that question with a yes then I ask can I live with its cost ?? I am 71 years old and I don't have all my OEM parts so I don't get bent out of shape if a 100 yr old + pistol has seen some rough days too. To me that's life and I don't have the time, energy and $$ to find that 'perfect' gun that most likely doesn't exist anyway. Our hobby attracts all sorts but I am so glad that my collecting motives are simple and pure ... that is to say the enjoyment of admiring the beautiful work of brilliantly conceived engineering art that is 'The Luger'. I love a numbers matching gun as well as the next man but it doesn't dictate whether I can truly enjoy the gun or not ... its the beauty I collect not the 'bragging rights'. I don't concern myself with the 'what's it worth' routine either because in truth a gun is worth what any man is willing to pay for it. Luger's are a gift from the creator IMO as each has an individual soul in its own right and like our own fingerprints may change over time while remaining true to that individual soul. Many of us here @ lugerforum speak of our collections as family and I cherish my 'family' whether the toggle pin is marked or not. __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

10-08-2022, 12:40 PM	#17
day late User Join Date: Aug 2022 Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 8 Posts	It certainly is a lot prettier than mine. With the way that pin comes out, I can easily see having to have a few replacements around. It wouldn't surprise me to find out many Lugers have either mis-matched or missing numbers on that pin.

10-09-2022, 11:49 AM	#18
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Your dealer helps prove the motto, "believe the gun, forget the story"... It takes time to develop background and skill when collecting Lugers. The best approach is to start by acquiring the latest and most comprehensive books. I help here by publishing our FAQ PDF document, free to download and full of good reference information. Your dealer is selling his stock, not reflecting information known by collectors that have studied Lugers. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-29-2023, 12:48 PM	#20
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	It's a nice looking gun. I have one that's the same, but the axle pin does match. If anyone has any in the same condition I have that 1000 - 1200 ready to spend !