Toggle not locking at all anymore?

[F15E_WSO]

Got this Luger about 10 days ago, had some problem getting toggle to lock open. With some effort it would lock. Now it won't at all. Mag in, Mag out, safety on/off the toggle won't remain back. I've attached a few photos, can see what I think is the "hold open latch" (#26) up with the mag in, button pushing up. Drops down when mag removed.

I've cleaned the gun when I got it, field strip, nothing nuts. Have not shot it as no .30 luger locally so ordered. So no reference on what happens when mag empties while firing.

Any thoughts? I've included a numbered parts list for reference. Thank you in advance

Looked at links below for help. Please refer me there if that is the answer

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...e+won%27t+lock


http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...e+won%27t+lock

Sorry, photos of toggle and breech are a bit crap, couldn't get phone to focus on the near field.

[HerrKaiser]

I’m also interested because my 1920 commercial’s holdopen is very weak and finnicky. Granted it’s not much an issue since I don’t shoot it, but it’s annoying when I’m looking at it or cleaning it.

[4 Scale]

The advice in the other threads is sound. Looking at your photos, the holdopen spring and basic operation appears OK. I've fixed this issue a few times and here are my bag of tricks. Basically I go down the list until the issue is fixed.
1. Push up on the mag base while attempting to hold open. If this results in improved performance, that is helpful to know although it doesn't immediately fix anything.
2. Remove the grips, operate the action and see if anything changes. If yes, the grips are somehow causing a bind.
3. If possible get a Luger that holds-open correctly. Carefully measure hold-open height when deployed. Compare the engaging surfaces of the hold open and the notch on the bottom of the breech block for wear.
4. Try a new Mec Gar magazine. Lugers can be magazine sensitive. Consider trying several magazines in search of one that will make the pistol hold open (I once tried 5 magazines to fix one pistol).
5. Ask G.T. to replace the spring in the Mec Gar with a stronger one. His contact info is available via a search.
6. Replace the hold-open spring.
7. Replace the hold open itself.
8. If, by comparison/careful measurement vs. other Lugers, you can measure that the hold-open is not going high enough, consider carefully removing metal to allow it to go higher. For most people this means send the gun to an experienced Luger-smith. I have done this myself on one pistol but don't recommend it to home gunsmiths unless you are absoultely sure of your skills, tools, diagnosis etc. Otherwise you can screw things up.

So far I've not had a Luger hold open function that could not be fixed with these steps. This seems to be a common malfunction and can be tricky to fix, but I can attest that is also satisfying to fix. If you don't want to do the above steps, pros like G.T. and Tom Heller are wonderful resources. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

When a Luger holds-open OK via manuel operation, but will not hold open with live rounds, sometimes that means the mainspring is too strong but it doesn't seem like you have hit that issue.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

The advice in the other threads is sound. Looking at your photos, the holdopen spring and basic operation appears OK. I've fixed this issue a few times and here are my bag of tricks. Basically I go down the list until the issue is fixed.
1. Push up on the mag base while attempting to hold open. If this results in improved performance, that is helpful to know although it doesn't immediately fix anything.
2. Remove the grips, operate the action and see if anything changes. If yes, the grips are somehow causing a bind.
3. If possible get a Luger that holds-open correctly. Carefully measure hold-open height when deployed. Compare the engaging surfaces of the hold open and the notch on the bottom of the breech block for wear.
4. Try a new Mec Gar magazine. Lugers can be magazine sensitive. Consider trying several magazines in search of one that will make the pistol hold open (I once tried 5 magazines to fix one pistol).
5. Ask G.T. to replace the spring in the Mec Gar with a stronger one. His contact info is available via a search.
6. Replace the hold-open spring.
7. Replace the hold open itself.
8. If, by comparison/careful measurement vs. other Lugers, you can measure that the hold-open is not going high enough, consider carefully removing metal to allow it to go higher. For most people this means send the gun to an experienced Luger-smith. I have done this myself on one pistol but don't recommend it to home gunsmiths unless you are absoultely sure of your skills, tools, diagnosis etc. Otherwise you can screw things up.

So far I've not had a Luger hold open function that could not be fixed with these steps. This seems to be a common malfunction and can be tricky to fix, but I can attest that is also satisfying to fix. If you don't want to do the above steps, pros like G.T. and Tom Heller are wonderful resources. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

When a Luger holds-open OK via manuel operation, but will not hold open with live rounds, sometimes that means the mainspring is too strong but it doesn't seem like you have hit that issue.

4 Scale, thanks for the solid listed approach and good references. I now have a path to follow. Hopefully successful and I can add one more data point on what worked for me. Again thanks for sharing.

[DonVoigt]

Just a couple things to add:
- the edge and the notch in the bolt look worn- though the pictures are too fuzzy to really tell.
They must be sharp and correctly angled to work correctly.
- I don't know where you can "remove" metal to make the hold go higher??
- Often it is simply a mag that rides too low, if you push up on it and it works- that is the issue.
This may be due to the mag or the mag catch.
- hold open springs, especially replacements, can be too strong
- the button on the mag is too small in diameter on some replacement mags, and original buttons
can be worn, I've seen them flattened from wear on one area, you can rotate the button to a new position

Hope this helps.

[mrerick]

The geometry and timing associated with Luger magazine operation is different than in most other Semi-Auto pistols.

This is because of the angle of the grip, and the fact that the magazine had to be designed to fit inside that grip compactly.

For this reason, the overall length of cartridges being correct is critical to the operation of Lugers. Both the 9mm Luger and .30 Luger cartridge use a tapered case body to facilitate extraction. A cartridge with an OAL that is too long or too short will interfere with operation.

The cartridges sit offset to one another with the rim of cartridges in contact with the middle of the body of the next one's case. This can cause the cartridge to cartridge contact point to shift, and the bullet to front of inside of the magazine point to shift in a furrowing direction. That affects timing.

Note that this is quite different than the simpler design of pistols like the P.38 and M1911 and modern pistols with a much more vertical grip.

The hold open operation is activated by the magazine follower button pushing the slide magazine lock up at precisely the right moment before the slide begins to return toward battery. Anything that slows down this will prevent the slide from locking open on an empty magazine.

Dirt in the channel that holds the magazine open lock bar, a weak hold open or magazine spring and delays in magazine timing can all contribute to the failure as mentioned above.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I don't know where you can "remove" metal to make the hold go higher??

I used a fine abrasive tip on a Dremel tool to polish an area of the frame that seemed to be a bit rough and touched the magazine follower when the mag was empty. The procedure fixed the issue rather dramatically, the pistol went from holding open maybe 50% of the time to 100%. Sorry I can't be more precise of the exact location on the frame, it was a year or two ago.

[Lugerdoc]

If your HO is one of Sarco's repros, I find that the rear that actually engages the bottom of the breech block, is not high enough. TH

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Just a couple things to add:
- the edge and the notch in the bolt look worn- though the pictures are too fuzzy to really tell.
They must be sharp and correctly angled to work correctly.
- I don't know where you can "remove" metal to make the hold go higher??
- Often it is simply a mag that rides too low, if you push up on it and it works- that is the issue.
This may be due to the mag or the mag catch.
- hold open springs, especially replacements, can be too strong
- the button on the mag is too small in diameter on some replacement mags, and original buttons
can be worn, I've seen them flattened from wear on one area, you can rotate the button to a new position

Hope this helps.

Lots of good info and it does seem to be the mag, I got one from MecGar as suggested and info is that the 9mm & 7.65 (.30 Luger) ammo is interchangeable in the mag? Hard to believe but ordered and on the way. I have a 7.65/.30 Luger.

I will see if the mag solves problem. I also see a tiny bit of wear and flattening on the slide button. How do I rotate the button? Just with pliers? It seems to be connected to the follower and don't want to break or shear it off while twisting? Just twist slightly?

THanks in advance

[HerrKaiser]

The mags do hold both ammo and are interchangeable in that regard. 9mm is just .30 Luger without the bottleneck.

[DonVoigt]

How do I rotate the button? Just with pliers? It seems to be connected to the follower and don't want to break or shear it off while twisting? Just twist slightly?

YES. It is "riveted" in place and usually turns easily, if you break it , GT can fix it for you.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

How do I rotate the button? Just with pliers? It seems to be connected to the follower and don't want to break or shear it off while twisting? Just twist slightly?

YES. It is "riveted" in place and usually turns easily, if you break it , GT can fix it for you.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Ok, but when I try and turn the button, the follower wants to turn with, suppose I can sort of tweak it a bit more. Additional Mag ordered.....as you say....Nothing ventured.....!!

[Eugen]

OP, definitely rule out a mag related issue first. Getting extra Mec-Gar mags is wise. You've got some great advice from the forum's Lugermeisters. Start eliminating each possible culprits. Perhaps you already mentioned this but did you remove and clean the gunk out of and around the H/O? That place seems to be a garbage magnet, which imped function.

Lastly, my brother-in-law was an F15 pilot. I recall him showing me one when they first came out in 1976(?). I flew in the, now old, SH-3's in the USN in the early 70s.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

Ok, but when I try and turn the button, the follower wants to turn with, suppose I can sort of tweak it a bit more. Additional Mag ordered.....as you say....Nothing ventured.....!!

Of course it does, but it will return to the correct position- just move the button a little more to compensate.

[Mac Cat]

The magazine would be the easiest to swap out.
It's very often the culprit and it's easy to check.
The top edges of magazines get bent a lot and it doesn't take much to render them ineffective.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Just a couple things to add:
- the edge and the notch in the bolt look worn- though the pictures are too fuzzy to really tell.
They must be sharp and correctly angled to work correctly.
- I don't know where you can "remove" metal to make the hold go higher??
- Often it is simply a mag that rides too low, if you push up on it and it works- that is the issue.
This may be due to the mag or the mag catch.
- hold open springs, especially replacements, can be too strong
- the button on the mag is too small in diameter on some replacement mags, and original buttons
can be worn, I've seen them flattened from wear on one area, you can rotate the button to a new position

Hope this helps.

DonVoigt, you mention the notch in the bolt may look worn, I have a better photo attached now. No expert but looks OK with a minor wear indication (may be trying to convince myself) the Hold Back behaves ideally when I put pressure on the bottom of the magazine--100% compliance. I've ordered a new Mag as well.

As I look at the old mag I considered wearing away an RCH (very very thin scale of measurement) of metal at the top of the slide. My concept was to mark a thin line with silver sharpie and then grind away with a dremel until the silver ink is gone. The button would now go up just a bit more and press on the Hold-Open Latch raising it up a bit--as if I was applying pressure from below. The only concern I have is the "follower" might rise a similar amount and then cause additional issues. Has anyone tried removing a bit of the channel as I've indicated with any success?

[DonVoigt]

The bolt notch looks fine when in focus! That's good.
What type mag is that? It doesn't look shaped just right at the top.
Could just be a worn notch in the mag or the mag catch itself, or a defective mag.

Usually the follower is stopped by the feed lips, at about the same time the button stops in its slot.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The bolt notch looks fine when in focus! That's good.
What type mag is that? It doesn't look shaped just right at the top.
Could just be a worn notch in the mag or the mag catch itself, or a defective mag.

Usually the follower is stopped by the feed lips, at about the same time the button stops in its slot.

DonVoigt, the original photo was crap, yes clear here and looks good, so that is good news. As for the type of mag....."uh a black one"? No idea? How could I tell, just poured over it and it has no markings I can see.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

Has anyone tried removing a bit of the channel as I've indicated with any success?

Yes, I did this once to try and improve hold open function. I discovered exactly what Don said-the follower kept it from rising. It didn't work.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

DonVoigt, the original photo was crap, yes clear here and looks good, so that is good news. As for the type of mag....."uh a black one"? No idea? How could I tell, just poured over it and it has no markings I can see.

You could post several views of the magazine, front, back, top , bottom, side views. It may be a POS aftermarket mag and just "won't work"- no matter what you do. JMHO.