1940 "Black Widow"

tracyp · 03-22-2002, 11:58 AM

I guy on Auction Arms has a 1940 with black plastic grips and claims it's all original. I'll bet this happens alot. They replace the wornout walnut grips with plastic grips and call it a "Black Widow". Of course it's hard to have an original 1940 "Black Widow".

Frank · 03-22-2002, 12:04 PM

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-22-2002, 12:23 PM

1940 Mauser"s did come with black plastic grips, but not with plastic (black) magazine bottoms.

Lonnie

Thor · 03-22-2002, 12:25 PM

Actually there were some that have black plastic grips. Jan Still has a picture of his own personal one that also has the black Army type 4 magazine. I doubt if he would own one that wasnt original. These dont say "byf" but are identical in general appearance. ONLY 2% were done this way, so they are very rare. TRL page 71. Thor

03-22-2002, 01:21 PM

Well, Guys....Now that this has been posted, they will be popping up all over the place! Black plastic grips will migrate from that byf41 to the 1940 dates! [and prices will double]

The Shadow Knows!

hehehehehehehehehe

03-22-2002, 01:24 PM

A fellow is selling reportedly "real" repro, BW grips for $ 17.50/pr.

I guess the trick here is to know how to spot such "new" grips from the Mauser originals...

My Blue Book says the presence of orginal BW grips on a 2-digit "byf" can drive the price up another 20%...

Maybe thats why folks are buying those $ 17.50 grips...

03-22-2002, 02:00 PM

Never can tell what will happen, can you? Stick to 1920 Commercials, no one wants to fake um! If there is $$$ to be made someone will make it at YOUR expence and never bat an eye, or have a bad dream, waking up in a cold sweat. It gets really sickening when people you trust, hose you! I guess it's really not their fault in this "Caveat Emptor, Sucker Be Ware, World". I guess $ has never been a reason for me to screw people, but mabey I'm clearly in the minority from recent posts. It makes me PUKE when it happens to a Veteran or his widow(I've seen it happen countless times and no longer keep my mouth shut when I see it at shows or even a dealers store) So what if they don't like it. In kindergarten a kid told me he did'nt like me....I got over it and no longer care. If fakery and deception lurks in your heart..... You will certainly get yours, sooner or later....I'll try my best to make sure you do!

This has nothing to do with the Shadow, I don't even know who he is?

he, he, he,(borrowed from the Shadow)

Till next time,

Timothy Canney

Hugh · 03-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Right on John, I have a 41 byf "BW" & 42 byf "BW" and the original grips are hard & shiny.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-22-2002, 02:46 PM

I have not seen faked BW grips that have the threaded places for the grip screws, YET!

Lonnie

Marvin · 03-22-2002, 04:10 PM

The Repro BW grips I have seen would not fool the "blind pig finding an acorn"! The checkering actually appears to have been done by the "blind pig"! Seriously, the ones I have seen were NOT shiney, and the checkering was the worst I have ever seen. The points were not correct, the line spacing was bad and overrun each other, etc.

I am sure someone will come up with a nice set of repros soon and then it will be difficult to tell them apart from the original. Just keep an eye out for them.

Marvin

bill m · 03-22-2002, 04:15 PM

Lonnie,

The black plastic grips did not come out until June of 1941 to the best of my knowledge, so anything before is a replacement. There were NO original black plastic grips issued with a 1940 Luger. No black plastic bases either, as they are all replacements when found with these models -- or have been added lately.

03-22-2002, 05:38 PM

Didn't Kreighoff make a few Lugers with black plastic grips, or was it just brown ones?

Thor · 03-22-2002, 05:56 PM

First Kriegs had wood grips, then pre war models went to brown coarse and fine checkered plastic grips, then during the War they switched to black plastic grips. Salt blued Lugers with strawed parts, a very expensive variation. Money.money.money!! Thor

lugerholsterrepair · 03-22-2002, 07:24 PM

I wondered for some time how to tell the difference between real and fake so did some homework. The important items are not only the outside but the inside.The holes on the inside were threaded to hold the grip screws when the grips were off the pistol. Also used to remove the grips from the shallow mold when finished. Later they simply gouged them out with a sharp tool. So the grips have gouge marks in the center instead of threaded holes. Take a gander at Randall Gibsons excellent book, Krieghoff Parabellum. He has a nice page or two with photos and explinations of what is and what is not real. You will be amazed you did not read this sooner. These grips were manufactured in wartime Germany of petroleum and coal materials that really stink. You can smell an original pair of grips. They also crumble easily. Not that I would recomend this as a test but you need to know. Jerry Burney

JAMES · 03-23-2002, 03:24 AM

I agree with the crumble part. They seem weak and brittle, although mine are fine now. I keep them off the gun for safe keeping, I bought inexpensive walnut repos to keep on the gun. I like to shoot mine, it is not a collector, side plate does not match. I can't say much about the smell, I was cursed (or blessed?) with a horrible sense of smell.

Bart · 03-23-2002, 09:56 PM

John, is there any chance that we could see a photo of your grips from the inside? I sure would like to compare them to my 1939 "42", which are hard and shiney, and compare favorably with the outside photos of yours. I think an "inside" shot of your grips would answer alot of questions.

Thanks,

Bart

John Sabato · 03-25-2002, 03:34 PM

03-22-2002, 11:58 AM	#1
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	1940 "Black Widow" I guy on Auction Arms has a 1940 with black plastic grips and claims it's all original. I'll bet this happens alot. They replace the wornout walnut grips with plastic grips and call it a "Black Widow". Of course it's hard to have an original 1940 "Black Widow".

03-22-2002, 12:04 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Exactly Correct!!! Ain't No such thing!!

03-22-2002, 12:23 PM	#3
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1940 "Black Widow" 1940 Mauser"s did come with black plastic grips, but not with plastic (black) magazine bottoms. Lonnie

03-22-2002, 12:25 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Exactly Correct!!! Ain't No such thing!! Actually there were some that have black plastic grips. Jan Still has a picture of his own personal one that also has the black Army type 4 magazine. I doubt if he would own one that wasnt original. These dont say "byf" but are identical in general appearance. ONLY 2% were done this way, so they are very rare. TRL page 71. Thor

03-22-2002, 01:21 PM	#5
The Shadow Guest Posts: n/a	1940 "Black Widow" Well, Guys....Now that this has been posted, they will be popping up all over the place! Black plastic grips will migrate from that byf41 to the 1940 dates! [and prices will double] The Shadow Knows! hehehehehehehehehe

03-22-2002, 01:24 PM	#6
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	BW Grips On Auction Arms...\| A fellow is selling reportedly "real" repro, BW grips for $ 17.50/pr. I guess the trick here is to know how to spot such "new" grips from the Mauser originals... My Blue Book says the presence of orginal BW grips on a 2-digit "byf" can drive the price up another 20%... Maybe thats why folks are buying those $ 17.50 grips...

03-22-2002, 01:44 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I have seen the photographs of the repro grips for auction -John http://www.lugerforum.com/owner_gall...to/BYF41-R.jpg

03-22-2002, 02:00 PM	#8
TIMOTHY CANNEY Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 1940 "Black Widow" Never can tell what will happen, can you? Stick to 1920 Commercials, no one wants to fake um! If there is $$$ to be made someone will make it at YOUR expence and never bat an eye, or have a bad dream, waking up in a cold sweat. It gets really sickening when people you trust, hose you! I guess it's really not their fault in this "Caveat Emptor, Sucker Be Ware, World". I guess $ has never been a reason for me to screw people, but mabey I'm clearly in the minority from recent posts. It makes me PUKE when it happens to a Veteran or his widow(I've seen it happen countless times and no longer keep my mouth shut when I see it at shows or even a dealers store) So what if they don't like it. In kindergarten a kid told me he did'nt like me....I got over it and no longer care. If fakery and deception lurks in your heart..... You will certainly get yours, sooner or later....I'll try my best to make sure you do! This has nothing to do with the Shadow, I don't even know who he is? he, he, he,(borrowed from the Shadow) Till next time, Timothy Canney

03-22-2002, 02:05 PM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Re: I have seen the photographs of the repro grips for auction Right on John, I have a 41 byf "BW" & 42 byf "BW" and the original grips are hard & shiny.

03-22-2002, 02:46 PM	#10
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1940 "Black Widow" I have not seen faked BW grips that have the threaded places for the grip screws, YET! Lonnie

03-22-2002, 04:10 PM	#11
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1940 "Black Widow" The Repro BW grips I have seen would not fool the "blind pig finding an acorn"! The checkering actually appears to have been done by the "blind pig"! Seriously, the ones I have seen were NOT shiney, and the checkering was the worst I have ever seen. The points were not correct, the line spacing was bad and overrun each other, etc. I am sure someone will come up with a nice set of repros soon and then it will be difficult to tell them apart from the original. Just keep an eye out for them. Marvin

03-22-2002, 04:15 PM	#12
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No 1940 Black Plastic Grips Lonnie, The black plastic grips did not come out until June of 1941 to the best of my knowledge, so anything before is a replacement. There were NO original black plastic grips issued with a 1940 Luger. No black plastic bases either, as they are all replacements when found with these models -- or have been added lately.

03-22-2002, 05:38 PM	#13
Mike T. Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Brown Widows Didn't Kreighoff make a few Lugers with black plastic grips, or was it just brown ones?

03-22-2002, 05:56 PM	#14
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Brown Widows First Kriegs had wood grips, then pre war models went to brown coarse and fine checkered plastic grips, then during the War they switched to black plastic grips. Salt blued Lugers with strawed parts, a very expensive variation. Money.money.money!! Thor

03-22-2002, 07:24 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Re:HOW TO TELL I wondered for some time how to tell the difference between real and fake so did some homework. The important items are not only the outside but the inside.The holes on the inside were threaded to hold the grip screws when the grips were off the pistol. Also used to remove the grips from the shallow mold when finished. Later they simply gouged them out with a sharp tool. So the grips have gouge marks in the center instead of threaded holes. Take a gander at Randall Gibsons excellent book, Krieghoff Parabellum. He has a nice page or two with photos and explinations of what is and what is not real. You will be amazed you did not read this sooner. These grips were manufactured in wartime Germany of petroleum and coal materials that really stink. You can smell an original pair of grips. They also crumble easily. Not that I would recomend this as a test but you need to know. Jerry Burney

03-23-2002, 03:24 AM	#16
JAMES User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lynn, Mass. Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:HOW TO TELL I agree with the crumble part. They seem weak and brittle, although mine are fine now. I keep them off the gun for safe keeping, I bought inexpensive walnut repos to keep on the gun. I like to shoot mine, it is not a collector, side plate does not match. I can't say much about the smell, I was cursed (or blessed?) with a horrible sense of smell.

03-23-2002, 09:56 PM	#17
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I have seen the photographs of the repro grips for auction John, is there any chance that we could see a photo of your grips from the inside? I sure would like to compare them to my 1939 "42", which are hard and shiney, and compare favorably with the outside photos of yours. I think an "inside" shot of your grips would answer alot of questions. Thanks, Bart

03-25-2002, 03:34 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I will post good clear scans of the inside of the grips this week.