Why is it collectors prefer WW2 WW1 weapons/

glock30 · 02-12-2013, 05:58 PM

With no imporation stampings/ I know the answer to this question but am having a hard time explaing it to someone, for he owns a century import P-38 that was cipped with imporation stamps, all matching but he got it for 500, . IS there way one of you guys can put it into terms he could understand?

mrerick · 02-12-2013, 06:06 PM

Luger and P.38 collectors value firearms highly when they are as close to the original factory state as possible.

Any modifications, mismatched parts, wear or non German military markings reduce collector interest, and valuation considerably.

Marc

glock30 · 02-12-2013, 06:44 PM

yea, but why the imporation stamps? even though all origina, great finsih, if thye have importation stamps, they seem to think of it as les value, AGAIN, I know hy, i can 't explain, this, and did they dipp P-38's? NO right, maybe after the war, but were they dipped and than sent to battle?

NoncomRetired · 02-12-2013, 07:07 PM

Stamps, proof marks, unit marks tell a story. To me, it's the story behind the firearm. Research is more complete with a proof mark/unit mark. Never been a P-38 fan, doesn't have the History as the P-08 does.

DavidJayUden · 02-12-2013, 07:09 PM

Because it has been "messed with". Once messed with, whether stamped, reblued, or otherwise altered, it leaves the smaller realm of collector guns, and enters the realm of more common, less collectable guns.
I guess it is just a way of maintaining the demand for the select few. Try selling a muscle car with non-matching numbers. Yes you can do it but no you will not get as much. Although it may run as good as or better than original.
But I agree that it is hard to verbalize.
dju

Curly1 · 02-12-2013, 10:13 PM

If no importation marks it has a better chance of being a Vet bringback also.

Edward Tinker · 02-12-2013, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curly1

If no importation marks it has a better chance of being a Vet bringback also.

wellllll, it has a better chance, but before 1968, tens of thousands of lugers were imported into the USA.

So, what others said above is true, but here is my 2 cents...

The simple answer is that you have to be a collector to understand, a person who is a shooter or non-collector can not understand WHY importation markings affect value, but it does.

The dipped is for Russian lugers and P38's, they were dipped either before storage or more likely before they were exported to the USA and other countries.

Vlim · 02-13-2013, 06:29 AM

It also depends on the collecting area, really.

Many guns went through refurbishing programmes while in use, anyway.

And there are import markings and import markings. Some are just awfully done, others well hidden out of sight. To me, such markings (which also include dealer markings and proof markings) are useful to trace the history of a gun.

alanint · 02-13-2013, 06:36 AM

I agree. To me ALL these guns are collectible. Some are just more desirable, due to the purity of their pedigree, (I.E. most closely resembling factory new).

Something similar occurs with Colt 1911s and SAAs. A Colt 1911 that has original finish and features is more desirable than one which has been parked and has A1 upgrades, but they are both still collectible and priced accordingly.

An original 7.5" US marked SAA is more desirable than a US marked Artillery SAA, yet both are collectible and priced accordingly.

They are all history.

Arizona Slim · 02-13-2013, 03:24 PM

Alainint,

"I agree. To me ALL these guns are collectible. Some are just more desirable, due to the purity of their pedigree, (I.E. most closely resembling factory new). "

Thank you, thank you, thank you, I agree completely, I believe the terminology "collector" and "Shooter" is a little misleading but still useful in distinguishing a pistol that has not been changed except through normal wear and tear as it left the factory as opposed to one that may have been repaired, reconditioned or had replacement parts added, but I believe they are all still very collectible.

Lon

Sammler · 02-13-2013, 04:29 PM

Personally, I do not like import marks and will pass on a Luger with them. Of course, there are other opinions about this and I respect that.

It is permissible to place import marks unobtrusively in the magazine well of a Luger-- making them VERY HARD TO SEE!

This is o.k. with the ATF, and I wish more importers would use it

alanint · 02-13-2013, 05:21 PM

The problem is the cost. Imagine the labor to disassemble 10,000 imported firearms, stamp them in a discreet spot, then reassemble them, trying to keep all the correct parts together.

Only small "boutique" importers have the time to do this and of course, pass the cost onto you.

CJS57 · 02-13-2013, 08:04 PM

Has anyone but me ever purchased a gun for their collection, then later found a tiny very hard to see import marks in some hidden place? Some are like micro printing, they look like scratch. To my surprise, I found I did not mind too much at all. Sure its better with out it but if you can't see it, well who cares. I collect the gun, not the previous travel history.

alanint · 02-13-2013, 09:46 PM

Yes. It happened to me with a near mint AC41 P-38 pistol. The finish was clearly original. The markings were all very sharp and crisp and the grips had a beautiful wine red color to them. I was very surprised to find an import mark on the bottom flat of the slide when I was cleaning it one day. But considering that someone took a near-mint pistol and simply exported it without altering it in any way, the import stamp made little difference to me.

Edward Tinker · 02-14-2013, 01:13 AM

yes, it has happened to me

I was thinking that in the last 3 or 4 yrs, that import markings were required to be a certain size, but perhaps I am confused?

02-12-2013, 05:58 PM	#1
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Why is it collectors prefer WW2 WW1 weapons/ With no imporation stampings/ I know the answer to this question but am having a hard time explaing it to someone, for he owns a century import P-38 that was cipped with imporation stamps, all matching but he got it for 500, . IS there way one of you guys can put it into terms he could understand? __________________ Mauser Parabellum 10.2098 !

02-12-2013, 06:06 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Luger and P.38 collectors value firearms highly when they are as close to the original factory state as possible. Any modifications, mismatched parts, wear or non German military markings reduce collector interest, and valuation considerably. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-12-2013, 06:44 PM	#3
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	yea, but why the imporation stamps? even though all origina, great finsih, if thye have importation stamps, they seem to think of it as les value, AGAIN, I know hy, i can 't explain, this, and did they dipp P-38's? NO right, maybe after the war, but were they dipped and than sent to battle? __________________ Mauser Parabellum 10.2098 !

02-12-2013, 10:13 PM	#6
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,230 Thanks: 113 Thanked 703 Times in 365 Posts	If no importation marks it has a better chance of being a Vet bringback also. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

02-13-2013, 04:29 PM	#11
Sammler User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Import markings Personally, I do not like import marks and will pass on a Luger with them. Of course, there are other opinions about this and I respect that. It is permissible to place import marks unobtrusively in the magazine well of a Luger-- making them VERY HARD TO SEE! This is o.k. with the ATF, and I wish more importers would use it

02-12-2013, 07:07 PM	#4
NoncomRetired Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 719 Thanks: 144 Thanked 306 Times in 146 Posts	Stamps, proof marks, unit marks tell a story. To me, it's the story behind the firearm. Research is more complete with a proof mark/unit mark. Never been a P-38 fan, doesn't have the History as the P-08 does.

02-12-2013, 07:09 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Because it has been "messed with". Once messed with, whether stamped, reblued, or otherwise altered, it leaves the smaller realm of collector guns, and enters the realm of more common, less collectable guns. I guess it is just a way of maintaining the demand for the select few. Try selling a muscle car with non-matching numbers. Yes you can do it but no you will not get as much. Although it may run as good as or better than original. But I agree that it is hard to verbalize. dju

02-13-2013, 06:29 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,921 Times in 1,194 Posts	It also depends on the collecting area, really. Many guns went through refurbishing programmes while in use, anyway. And there are import markings and import markings. Some are just awfully done, others well hidden out of sight. To me, such markings (which also include dealer markings and proof markings) are useful to trace the history of a gun.

02-13-2013, 06:36 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree. To me ALL these guns are collectible. Some are just more desirable, due to the purity of their pedigree, (I.E. most closely resembling factory new). Something similar occurs with Colt 1911s and SAAs. A Colt 1911 that has original finish and features is more desirable than one which has been parked and has A1 upgrades, but they are both still collectible and priced accordingly. An original 7.5" US marked SAA is more desirable than a US marked Artillery SAA, yet both are collectible and priced accordingly. They are all history.

02-13-2013, 03:24 PM	#10
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	Alainint, "I agree. To me ALL these guns are collectible. Some are just more desirable, due to the purity of their pedigree, (I.E. most closely resembling factory new). " Thank you, thank you, thank you, I agree completely, I believe the terminology "collector" and "Shooter" is a little misleading but still useful in distinguishing a pistol that has not been changed except through normal wear and tear as it left the factory as opposed to one that may have been repaired, reconditioned or had replacement parts added, but I believe they are all still very collectible. Lon

02-13-2013, 05:21 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The problem is the cost. Imagine the labor to disassemble 10,000 imported firearms, stamp them in a discreet spot, then reassemble them, trying to keep all the correct parts together. Only small "boutique" importers have the time to do this and of course, pass the cost onto you.

02-13-2013, 08:04 PM	#13
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Has anyone but me ever purchased a gun for their collection, then later found a tiny very hard to see import marks in some hidden place? Some are like micro printing, they look like scratch. To my surprise, I found I did not mind too much at all. Sure its better with out it but if you can't see it, well who cares. I collect the gun, not the previous travel history.

02-13-2013, 09:46 PM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Yes. It happened to me with a near mint AC41 P-38 pistol. The finish was clearly original. The markings were all very sharp and crisp and the grips had a beautiful wine red color to them. I was very surprised to find an import mark on the bottom flat of the slide when I was cleaning it one day. But considering that someone took a near-mint pistol and simply exported it without altering it in any way, the import stamp made little difference to me. Last edited by alanint; 02-14-2013 at 02:50 PM.

02-14-2013, 01:13 AM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	yes, it has happened to me I was thinking that in the last 3 or 4 yrs, that import markings were required to be a certain size, but perhaps I am confused?