TM-08 Un-Loading Tool...

Pete Ebbink · 10-14-2004, 05:10 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...276582153&rd=1

Now on e-Bay...

Just wondering if folks think this item is real ? I can only find it mentioned in one of the many Luger books I have...the one by Mauro Baudino on LP-08's...

Still, Kenyon, Bender, Datig...do not mention an un-loading tool...only a loading tool.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 10-14-2004, 07:25 PM

They were probably put together by post WWI police units from loading tools. Ed Sayre studied these things for years and that was his conclusion.

I can not imagine a stormtrooper during WWI unloading a snail drum.

John Sabato · 10-15-2004, 08:56 AM

Just as possible that it was a support or depot level maintenance tool (also made from loading tools) to unload magazines on which maintenance was required or due...????

mauro · 10-16-2004, 10:10 AM

Hello guys,
I have analyzed this tool in my book at page 63.
According to the Ã¢??Ausbildung mit der langen Pistole 08 mit Trommelmagazine 18.2.1918Ã¢?Â the TM08 were delivered inside P-Kasten Woden boox) in the following configuration:
Ã¢?Â¢ 5 Trommelmagazine mit Schutzappen (5 TM08 with dust cover)
Ã¢?Â¢ 1 Fuller (One loading tool)
Ã¢?Â¢ 480 Pistolen-patronen (16 Patronenschachtlen)

The unloading tool was not present in the aforementioned items.

The unloading tool is not described in the Ã¢??Anleitung zur Langen Pstole 08 mit ansteckbarem TrommelmagazinÃ¢?Â the TM08 instruction and use manual.
At the contrary, the use of loading tool was described in the aforementioned manual.

There are no evidences that this item was used in the WWI.
The Sturmtruppen do not have time to load again a TM08 during the attack!

I guess that this item is a post-war modification.
Ciao

LU1900 · 10-16-2004, 10:56 AM

In mine P.Kasten just 8x4 box of 16 patronen so 512 patronen in fact
So what for the other we know in USA ??
Best regards Pat

George Anderson · 10-16-2004, 12:56 PM

My TM08kasten holds 5x7x16 or 560 rounds. The unloaders when examined all show signs of having been cut and welded. They are clearly modified loaders.

During the period of the Red uprisings in Germany (1918-1925) the police were frequently armed with MP18s. These first submachine guns were fed with the TM08. It is quite probable that these cops went out on patrol in their urban districts armed with fully loaded snails and speed guns.

As is the case today, these cops would have returned to the station, most often, with still fully loaded weapons. If a snail is left loaded for any time the spring is seriously weakened. Figure it out, cops unloaded their weapons.

During the war, I would imagine Stosstruppen would simply fire off 32 rounds to the west when they needed to unload. It's a pain in the ass to unload a full TM08 with the right thumb.

Ron Wood · 10-16-2004, 01:23 PM

Wouldn't that be a pain in the thumb? Would it hurt more if you used the wrong thumb? These questions just keep coming to mind.

mauro · 10-16-2004, 01:53 PM

Hi Ed,
As you know the most important difference between the Sturmtruppen and the normal Infantry was the fight tactics. The Sturmtruppen implemented, for the first time, the attacks with limited objectives and the elastic defense. While German artillery suppressed the French guns with gas shell, detachment of Sturmtruppen charged over the top to open gaps in French wire. The Sturmtruppen were followed by the line infantry, swarming forward in skirmish lines and occupied the French position.
I guess, but this is my speculation, that the Sturmtruppen were well armed before the attack with adequate and complementary weapons strictly finalized for the mission. All details were taken into account. The attack should be rapid with the line infantry that follows and consolidate the position. I really think that, in this context, the TM08 were loaded before the attack and not reloaded up to the end of the rapid fight. I donÃ¢??t think that the Sturmtruppen had the loading or unloading tool available during the quick attack.

This is my thought and, of course, could be wrong.

Ciao
Mauro

Edward Tinker · 10-16-2004, 02:09 PM

Thanks Mauro, mine was simply conjecture and as I thought about, I thought the after the war years were more likely to have been used, especially by the police like George stated.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 10-25-2004, 11:28 PM

Winning bid was $ 738.00 USD... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

10-14-2004, 05:10 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	TM-08 Un-Loading Tool... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...276582153&rd=1 Now on e-Bay... Just wondering if folks think this item is real ? I can only find it mentioned in one of the many Luger books I have...the one by Mauro Baudino on LP-08's... Still, Kenyon, Bender, Datig...do not mention an un-loading tool...only a loading tool. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-15-2004, 08:56 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Just as possible that it was a support or depot level maintenance tool (also made from loading tools) to unload magazines on which maintenance was required or due...???? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-16-2004, 10:10 AM	#4
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hello guys, I have analyzed this tool in my book at page 63. According to the Ã¢??Ausbildung mit der langen Pistole 08 mit Trommelmagazine 18.2.1918Ã¢?Â the TM08 were delivered inside P-Kasten Woden boox) in the following configuration: Ã¢?Â¢ 5 Trommelmagazine mit Schutzappen (5 TM08 with dust cover) Ã¢?Â¢ 1 Fuller (One loading tool) Ã¢?Â¢ 480 Pistolen-patronen (16 Patronenschachtlen) The unloading tool was not present in the aforementioned items. The unloading tool is not described in the Ã¢??Anleitung zur Langen Pstole 08 mit ansteckbarem TrommelmagazinÃ¢?Â the TM08 instruction and use manual. At the contrary, the use of loading tool was described in the aforementioned manual. There are no evidences that this item was used in the WWI. The Sturmtruppen do not have time to load again a TM08 during the attack! I guess that this item is a post-war modification. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

10-16-2004, 10:56 AM	#5
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 912 Thanks: 46 Thanked 473 Times in 199 Posts	In mine P.Kasten just 8x4 box of 16 patronen so 512 patronen in fact So what for the other we know in USA ?? Best regards Pat __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

10-16-2004, 01:23 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Wouldn't that be a pain in the thumb? Would it hurt more if you used the wrong thumb? These questions just keep coming to mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-14-2004, 07:25 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	They were probably put together by post WWI police units from loading tools. Ed Sayre studied these things for years and that was his conclusion. I can not imagine a stormtrooper during WWI unloading a snail drum.

10-16-2004, 12:56 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	My TM08kasten holds 5x7x16 or 560 rounds. The unloaders when examined all show signs of having been cut and welded. They are clearly modified loaders. During the period of the Red uprisings in Germany (1918-1925) the police were frequently armed with MP18s. These first submachine guns were fed with the TM08. It is quite probable that these cops went out on patrol in their urban districts armed with fully loaded snails and speed guns. As is the case today, these cops would have returned to the station, most often, with still fully loaded weapons. If a snail is left loaded for any time the spring is seriously weakened. Figure it out, cops unloaded their weapons. During the war, I would imagine Stosstruppen would simply fire off 32 rounds to the west when they needed to unload. It's a pain in the ass to unload a full TM08 with the right thumb.

10-16-2004, 01:53 PM	#8
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Hi Ed, As you know the most important difference between the Sturmtruppen and the normal Infantry was the fight tactics. The Sturmtruppen implemented, for the first time, the attacks with limited objectives and the elastic defense. While German artillery suppressed the French guns with gas shell, detachment of Sturmtruppen charged over the top to open gaps in French wire. The Sturmtruppen were followed by the line infantry, swarming forward in skirmish lines and occupied the French position. I guess, but this is my speculation, that the Sturmtruppen were well armed before the attack with adequate and complementary weapons strictly finalized for the mission. All details were taken into account. The attack should be rapid with the line infantry that follows and consolidate the position. I really think that, in this context, the TM08 were loaded before the attack and not reloaded up to the end of the rapid fight. I donÃ¢??t think that the Sturmtruppen had the loading or unloading tool available during the quick attack. This is my thought and, of course, could be wrong. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

10-16-2004, 02:09 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Thanks Mauro, mine was simply conjecture and as I thought about, I thought the after the war years were more likely to have been used, especially by the police like George stated. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 11:28 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Winning bid was $ 738.00 USD... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />