Interesting Old .22 Luger Thread

Rick W. · 03-02-2019, 08:35 PM

The 38 special, 223, 357 wildcats have been around a while. Some use the DW360 or Largo even. The 17, 19 and 20 cal guys use a lot of rimmed 38/357/largo for their wildcats, with the same concept you presented on reusing a 223 or 223 AI reamer, works pretty well as you already know. I think that concept probably is more prudent than the idea of a specialized die being made up, then procuring a custom reamer. PTG grinds reamers fairly reasonably fwiw......comparatively speaking. Just different approaches I reckon.

I have a lot of old hornet and bee bullets, mostly Winchester that fall in the little bare nosed bullet category I think. Hard to find at times......so I went out and looked at this site:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSear...temsPerPage=48

kinda surprising how many bullets under 50grs for the 22 bore.

I shoot a Smith Wesson 53 a fair amount, supposed to have the fairly rare 222 diameter bullets by Hornady, but the 223's are easier to get and are ok with my loads. I have looked into getting a Lee bullet sizer(30 bucks) to take 224 down to 223 or 223; just because of the bulk buys on 224's at times being presented.

In trying to come up to speed a little, I have learned that having the right brass can really help a project like this(base dimensions), Rich has already been thru most of that, I appreciate being reminded of such. Not looked at inside reaming or outside turning yet, but tis a custom project I remind myself.........

I hear you on parts pricing nowadays, everyone thinks they have a natural 401K...........I walk myself on those things. One will turn up somehow without paying the magical tolls, being on an inner circle sure helps.

Werle has a youtube or two on a Luger that shoots the longish 30 Mauser, the cartridges reside in the basic Luger magazine, but pretty upright. From the tube the cartridges seem to wanna feed even, never would have thunk it.............

I share the dream of a sub-caliber Luger, maybe someone will get there...............

............post it for me that will probably still be stumbling around in the dark.

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 09:15 PM

I still have some of the test cases I used for a similar project...The loaded cartridge on the far right is a Fiocchi 30 Luger cartridge for comparison...

These were 5.56 cases, I didn't care if they were trashed...But they extruded quite well to the smaller diameter neck...

The one closest to a 30 Luger case would be acceptable...

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 09:48 PM

I checked my box of die sets and lo & behold I have a spare set of .223 Remington dies!

They're in a soft plastic rack container, and that is something I would never buy. Either I got it with an AR-15 long ago, or someone gave it to me...

I much prefer the green hard case boxes.

Now to find a Luger barrel extension...

Rick W. · 03-02-2019, 10:23 PM

I tried a piece of Privi 223 brass tonight cut off with a tubing cutter to about 0.9" figuring I would lose some length going down to 22. I have used this brass in 22 hornet for a 22 squirrel Smith Wesson revolver, sure worked nice; so tried the brand again for this.

I used the old Lee bushing die again, but with more common sense. I could mimic the original angle of the 30 Luger more closely if I paid attention for once. I used the basic Lee bushing die without bushing first to knock the front down just a little. Then went to 308, 276, 255. The reworked 223 Privi brass did ok, looked more it shoulda. Always have to relearn something..........

As expected in going down to 22 caliber, the neck walls are super thick. After the 255 bushing, I tried seating a 224 bullet, and stopped before I killed it. So I ran a 224 inside expander on it, and the case with a loaded bullet ballooned to 266.

So one could always inside neck ream, but that puts variables on the brand/lot of brass. One could consider inside expanding and then neck turn, which of course, would be consistent without the brass thickness variables.

The 266 is pretty big for a 22, but guess custom reamer is a custom reamer, no extra cost for a unique neck size bore. neck/lead reamers are out there too, but probably be custom? not knowem right now.

I don't have any practical experience with a cut off 222 die set, especially that much cut off. The 222 has some angle to its sides, so the tighter it gets as you cut off. Of course, you know all of this stuff, just thinking out loud here. The super or Largo brass is thnner fwiw.

The 223 brass for a 22/30 Luger wildcat will work, but the resultant neck walls are there to be handled somehow, one way or another.
My trial case with 223 looks much nicer with the better technique tonight, feeds in a Luger magazine ok. So tis a start.

I only have a 223 A.I. reamer in the drawer..........oh, a 222 reamer as well, so might give that a go in a old barrel stub run in short just to learn more. Would be nice not to have to buy a reamer.................yeah, I said that before........but sometimes it works out huh?........

...theoretical analysis can always be done to see the dimensions once modified things are cut/sized, but sometimes just working the metal is good therapy.

In the past, a long barrel has always been my choice, maybe if the 22 Luger project comes to life, a 4 3/4 Swiss might be the ticket. Less mass to move etc etc...........and looks like a Luger to me.......but so many options when metal is in front of you....................fun stuff huh?

sheepherder · 03-02-2019, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

In the past, a long barrel has always been my choice, maybe if the 22 Luger project comes to life, a 4 3/4 Swiss might be the ticket.

Michael Zelany has pics of a Swiss 'target' Luger that shows up in the Random Album Pics occasionally. It is pretty cool looking. I don't know the actual length or taper or diameter but I might try 'reverse-engineering' a .22 barrel from his pics...

If I can find them...I don't see them in his albums...

But Michael is selling some of his Swiss Lugers this week...

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/797996394

Edit: Ah! Here's the pic! From Random Album Pics -

Hmmm...Kinda long...

Rick W. · 03-03-2019, 02:25 PM

Ever since I saw my first 4 3/4" barrel a while ago, no other taper has ever taken its place as my favorite. Looks good to me, handles ok. The 550/450 taper (4 3/4") on a 30 bore does it for me every time. I have a picture somewhere of a guy's Navy Luger with a 7" taper like this............looks swell.......

I think a lighter barrel taper may help with any 22/30 Luger attempts, less mass to fuss with.

Lots of bullet mold outfits offer simallish 22 bullet wares, not like the old days, most ranges today will not allow lead bullets; but..........the molds are out there still.

I have done this taper on 4 3/4" thru 14" in real 30 Luger and the wildcats thereof.......always functioned ok. My scope mounted Luger mule has the longer barrel now with that taper. The 4 3/4 taper to some may not hold as steady as a heavier taper or bull type, but to others fits the bill ok. So kinda a choice thing........

I ventured into the spec of the 223 A.I. a little, it has about 1/2 the body taper of the regular 223, so cutting that off might have a slight advantage perhaps.

Trying find a sub slush fund now for a new reamer.........what's another reamer among the many...........it would do the bushing neck sizing die and forming dies..........and the 223 A.I. might do the body sizing............just dreaming this morning.

sheepherder · 03-04-2019, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Ever since I saw my first 4 3/4" barrel a while ago, no other taper has ever taken its place as my favorite. Looks good to me, handles ok. The 550/450 taper (4 3/4") on a 30 bore does it for me every time.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. It's not the major/minor taper of a 120mm M1900 barrel (pic below).

I have a 1900AE and a couple M1900 barrels and I think the taper is too steep and the barrel too thin...

03-02-2019, 08:35 PM	#1
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	The 38 special, 223, 357 wildcats have been around a while. Some use the DW360 or Largo even. The 17, 19 and 20 cal guys use a lot of rimmed 38/357/largo for their wildcats, with the same concept you presented on reusing a 223 or 223 AI reamer, works pretty well as you already know. I think that concept probably is more prudent than the idea of a specialized die being made up, then procuring a custom reamer. PTG grinds reamers fairly reasonably fwiw......comparatively speaking. Just different approaches I reckon. I have a lot of old hornet and bee bullets, mostly Winchester that fall in the little bare nosed bullet category I think. Hard to find at times......so I went out and looked at this site: https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSear...temsPerPage=48 kinda surprising how many bullets under 50grs for the 22 bore. I shoot a Smith Wesson 53 a fair amount, supposed to have the fairly rare 222 diameter bullets by Hornady, but the 223's are easier to get and are ok with my loads. I have looked into getting a Lee bullet sizer(30 bucks) to take 224 down to 223 or 223; just because of the bulk buys on 224's at times being presented. In trying to come up to speed a little, I have learned that having the right brass can really help a project like this(base dimensions), Rich has already been thru most of that, I appreciate being reminded of such. Not looked at inside reaming or outside turning yet, but tis a custom project I remind myself......... I hear you on parts pricing nowadays, everyone thinks they have a natural 401K...........I walk myself on those things. One will turn up somehow without paying the magical tolls, being on an inner circle sure helps. Werle has a youtube or two on a Luger that shoots the longish 30 Mauser, the cartridges reside in the basic Luger magazine, but pretty upright. From the tube the cartridges seem to wanna feed even, never would have thunk it............. I share the dream of a sub-caliber Luger, maybe someone will get there...........................post it for me that will probably still be stumbling around in the dark.

03-02-2019, 10:23 PM	#4
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	I tried a piece of Privi 223 brass tonight cut off with a tubing cutter to about 0.9" figuring I would lose some length going down to 22. I have used this brass in 22 hornet for a 22 squirrel Smith Wesson revolver, sure worked nice; so tried the brand again for this. I used the old Lee bushing die again, but with more common sense. I could mimic the original angle of the 30 Luger more closely if I paid attention for once. I used the basic Lee bushing die without bushing first to knock the front down just a little. Then went to 308, 276, 255. The reworked 223 Privi brass did ok, looked more it shoulda. Always have to relearn something.......... As expected in going down to 22 caliber, the neck walls are super thick. After the 255 bushing, I tried seating a 224 bullet, and stopped before I killed it. So I ran a 224 inside expander on it, and the case with a loaded bullet ballooned to 266. So one could always inside neck ream, but that puts variables on the brand/lot of brass. One could consider inside expanding and then neck turn, which of course, would be consistent without the brass thickness variables. The 266 is pretty big for a 22, but guess custom reamer is a custom reamer, no extra cost for a unique neck size bore. neck/lead reamers are out there too, but probably be custom? not knowem right now. I don't have any practical experience with a cut off 222 die set, especially that much cut off. The 222 has some angle to its sides, so the tighter it gets as you cut off. Of course, you know all of this stuff, just thinking out loud here. The super or Largo brass is thnner fwiw. The 223 brass for a 22/30 Luger wildcat will work, but the resultant neck walls are there to be handled somehow, one way or another. My trial case with 223 looks much nicer with the better technique tonight, feeds in a Luger magazine ok. So tis a start. I only have a 223 A.I. reamer in the drawer..........oh, a 222 reamer as well, so might give that a go in a old barrel stub run in short just to learn more. Would be nice not to have to buy a reamer.................yeah, I said that before........but sometimes it works out huh?...........theoretical analysis can always be done to see the dimensions once modified things are cut/sized, but sometimes just working the metal is good therapy. In the past, a long barrel has always been my choice, maybe if the 22 Luger project comes to life, a 4 3/4 Swiss might be the ticket. Less mass to move etc etc...........and looks like a Luger to me.......but so many options when metal is in front of you....................fun stuff huh?

03-03-2019, 02:25 PM	#6
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Ever since I saw my first 4 3/4" barrel a while ago, no other taper has ever taken its place as my favorite. Looks good to me, handles ok. The 550/450 taper (4 3/4") on a 30 bore does it for me every time. I have a picture somewhere of a guy's Navy Luger with a 7" taper like this............looks swell....... I think a lighter barrel taper may help with any 22/30 Luger attempts, less mass to fuss with. Lots of bullet mold outfits offer simallish 22 bullet wares, not like the old days, most ranges today will not allow lead bullets; but..........the molds are out there still. I have done this taper on 4 3/4" thru 14" in real 30 Luger and the wildcats thereof.......always functioned ok. My scope mounted Luger mule has the longer barrel now with that taper. The 4 3/4 taper to some may not hold as steady as a heavier taper or bull type, but to others fits the bill ok. So kinda a choice thing........ I ventured into the spec of the 223 A.I. a little, it has about 1/2 the body taper of the regular 223, so cutting that off might have a slight advantage perhaps. Trying find a sub slush fund now for a new reamer.........what's another reamer among the many...........it would do the bushing neck sizing die and forming dies..........and the 223 A.I. might do the body sizing............just dreaming this morning.