Imperial, Weimar, and 3rd Reich Luger

Geo99 · 12-21-2014, 09:31 PM

Here is 1918 Luger, SN 4275h, I picked up recently that has evidence of service through all three periods of 20th century German military history.

This is what I have deduced:
This gun started life as 1918 WWI Imperial Luger.
After WWI it was accepted into Weimar military service in 1920 (not a police rework). It was reworked a second time by the Nazis for WWII military service sometime in the late 1930's.

I would say it has about 80% original blue left. Most of the wear is on the sideplate and grip straps (front strap is the worst).
Bore is only good - I call it early sewer pipe with strong rifling.

Grips appear to be original 3rd Reich rework replacements, correctly numbered with large numbers characteristic of the period. I believe the dished forward toggle axle is a correct Nazi rework part. (thanks Lugerdoc for explaining this to me).
Rear toggle rear axle is a correctly numbered Nazi rework part.

Here is where it gets interesting -

On the back of the frame is an "Eagle over mg10" stamp. The eagle has a broken wing.
All I could find out is this is a Nazi era acceptance stamp which is very rare on Lugers. I don't know what it means - machine gun unit?

The magazine is matching but has no suffix and an additional “75” stamp which I have not seen before - could this be from the last rework?

- Geo

Lots of pics below -

Geo99 · 12-21-2014, 10:06 PM

Pictures of grips & mag.

Douglas Jr. · 12-22-2014, 09:14 AM

Well, can't add any further comment, except that it is a very interesting and nice Luger with a lot of history in it.
And the gun is in remarkable shape and condition conidering its lenghty active duty.
Congratulations!
Douglas.

roadkill1 · 12-22-2014, 10:03 AM

Geo:

Congrats…..wonderful Luger VERY RICH IN HISTORY…..I notice that the front grip strap has had some grinding where you would expect to find a unit mark. Suspect that the unit marking was in fact ground off.

Thanks for posting and pics.

Ron

Geo99 · 12-22-2014, 11:51 PM

Ron,

You know I didn't think of that - I just thought it was just really worn in front for some reason, but grinding off the unit marking makes a lot of sense.

- Geo

Sergio Natali · 12-23-2014, 12:03 PM

I noticed that and I'm not convinced it's just worn out in that rectangular area, but who knows, I'd like to examine that bit on a closer and more detailed picture.

Sergio

alvin · 12-23-2014, 12:47 PM

Just a little bit doubt on the erased stamp. I don't know how many different ways German erasing previous marks. But many examples showing they simply putting ----------- or XXXXXX over previous stamps, they did not care that way being beautiful or not (actually, beautiful from today's collectors viewpoint).

Totally erased.... then, a natural question: how do we know that's a unit mark, not an importer stamp?

alvin · 12-23-2014, 01:48 PM

Thought it again.

German applied stamps were usually very deep. To erase it, considerable amount of metals have to be removed. Importers, on the other hand, usually say "it's small, shallow, barely noticeable", etc. So, checking how much metal was removed could give a hint.

Geo99 · 12-24-2014, 01:46 AM

I think it would be odd place for an importer's mark, usually they are on the side or on the barrel, but it's certainly not impossible. But who would bother to grind off an import stamp on a such a worn gun?

Now that I look at it closely again, it actually looks like a repair. Like it was ground way down and then build up again with welding, but not refinished, just smoothed over and left bare. When I have some time I'll try to get a better close-up picture.

- Geo

Lyn Islaub · 12-24-2014, 09:51 AM

I have a q suffix ( s/n 8683 I think) from the same period with "MG7" marked in the same area on the rear of the frame. My pistol is pictured in Weimar Lugers with the speculation that it was a machine gun training company. Regardless, it is a relatively rare marking and yours is only the third one I have heard of.
Lyn

Sergio Natali · 12-24-2014, 10:24 AM

Naaa, I don't think there was an importer's mark there.

alvin · 12-24-2014, 11:15 AM

OK. Let's wait close-up pictures. There are multiple possibilities.

Geo99 · 12-28-2014, 03:53 PM

Here are the close-ups of the front grip strap. If I run my finger over the area, I can feel the "white" area is raised up a little, like it was welded and ground back down. I tried to show that in the picture but it is difficult to capture. I am convinced it is a repair of some sort.

There is also a deep pit in the same area (only one). It does not look like it occurred naturally, as from rust, but rather from damage or a punch mark.

The repaired area is a similar shape and location as a unit marking. Why would someone grind off unit marking? Here is a crazy idea: Maybe the owner was ashamed of what they had done and tried to remove evidence of a unit they were with by grinding off the unit marks? Then they or someone else repaired the ground down area?

- Geo

Nomadr · 12-28-2014, 07:50 PM

Remove the grips and examine the frame from the inside. You may be able to see evidence from damage or marks from stamping.

Bob

lugerholsterrepair · 12-28-2014, 07:51 PM

Maybe the owner was ashamed of what they had done and tried to remove evidence of a unit they were with by grinding off the unit marks? Not even a possibility. During the time unit marks were applied..German Soldiers were extremely proud of their service in WW1 and very patriotic. They did not lose the war. It was an agreement by the powers that they quit. Of course Germany was on the short end of it and paid reparations but the Soldiers came home proud.

Geo99 · 12-29-2014, 01:07 AM

Jerry,
I appreciate what you are saying - I did say it was a crazy idea!

alanint · 12-29-2014, 07:55 AM

This may also be battle damage that was repaired at depot level.

Sergio Natali · 12-29-2014, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

This may also be battle damage that was repaired at depot level.

That's more likely to me.

Geo99 · 01-06-2015, 10:32 PM

Finally got some time to take a couple pics of the inside - yes you can definitely see repaired damage on the inside. It looks like it was all the way through. Appears to be welded and then hit with a grinder. Repaired battle damage? - not the neatest repair job but I'll take it.

- Geo

alanint · 01-07-2015, 07:34 AM

Most battle damage comes from shell splinters. I once owned an MP44 that shot fine, but it was covered with small cuts and holes from splinter damage. Relic helmets you sometimes see online are good examples of this, as well.

It is not too far fetched to imagine a shell splinter hitting a gun sitting in a holster on someone's waist in battle.

12-21-2014, 09:31 PM	#1
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Imperial, Weimar, and 3rd Reich Luger Here is 1918 Luger, SN 4275h, I picked up recently that has evidence of service through all three periods of 20th century German military history. This is what I have deduced: This gun started life as 1918 WWI Imperial Luger. After WWI it was accepted into Weimar military service in 1920 (not a police rework). It was reworked a second time by the Nazis for WWII military service sometime in the late 1930's. I would say it has about 80% original blue left. Most of the wear is on the sideplate and grip straps (front strap is the worst). Bore is only good - I call it early sewer pipe with strong rifling. Grips appear to be original 3rd Reich rework replacements, correctly numbered with large numbers characteristic of the period. I believe the dished forward toggle axle is a correct Nazi rework part. (thanks Lugerdoc for explaining this to me). Rear toggle rear axle is a correctly numbered Nazi rework part. Here is where it gets interesting - On the back of the frame is an "Eagle over mg10" stamp. The eagle has a broken wing. All I could find out is this is a Nazi era acceptance stamp which is very rare on Lugers. I don't know what it means - machine gun unit? The magazine is matching but has no suffix and an additional “75” stamp which I have not seen before - could this be from the last rework? - Geo Lots of pics below - Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers Last edited by Geo99; 12-21-2014 at 10:21 PM.

12-21-2014, 10:06 PM	#2
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	More pictures Pictures of grips & mag. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-22-2014, 11:51 PM	#5
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Ron, You know I didn't think of that - I just thought it was just really worn in front for some reason, but grinding off the unit marking makes a lot of sense. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-23-2014, 12:03 PM	#6
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I noticed that and I'm not convinced it's just worn out in that rectangular area, but who knows, I'd like to examine that bit on a closer and more detailed picture. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-24-2014, 01:46 AM	#9
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	I think it would be odd place for an importer's mark, usually they are on the side or on the barrel, but it's certainly not impossible. But who would bother to grind off an import stamp on a such a worn gun? Now that I look at it closely again, it actually looks like a repair. Like it was ground way down and then build up again with welding, but not refinished, just smoothed over and left bare. When I have some time I'll try to get a better close-up picture. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-22-2014, 09:14 AM	#3
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Well, can't add any further comment, except that it is a very interesting and nice Luger with a lot of history in it. And the gun is in remarkable shape and condition conidering its lenghty active duty. Congratulations! Douglas.

12-22-2014, 10:03 AM	#4
roadkill1 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Virginia Posts: 127 Thanks: 166 Thanked 129 Times in 63 Posts	Geo: Congrats…..wonderful Luger VERY RICH IN HISTORY…..I notice that the front grip strap has had some grinding where you would expect to find a unit mark. Suspect that the unit marking was in fact ground off. Thanks for posting and pics. Ron

12-23-2014, 12:47 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Just a little bit doubt on the erased stamp. I don't know how many different ways German erasing previous marks. But many examples showing they simply putting ----------- or XXXXXX over previous stamps, they did not care that way being beautiful or not (actually, beautiful from today's collectors viewpoint). Totally erased.... then, a natural question: how do we know that's a unit mark, not an importer stamp?

12-23-2014, 01:48 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thought it again. German applied stamps were usually very deep. To erase it, considerable amount of metals have to be removed. Importers, on the other hand, usually say "it's small, shallow, barely noticeable", etc. So, checking how much metal was removed could give a hint.

12-24-2014, 09:51 AM	#10
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	I have a q suffix ( s/n 8683 I think) from the same period with "MG7" marked in the same area on the rear of the frame. My pistol is pictured in Weimar Lugers with the speculation that it was a machine gun training company. Regardless, it is a relatively rare marking and yours is only the third one I have heard of. Lyn

12-24-2014, 10:24 AM	#11
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Naaa, I don't think there was an importer's mark there. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-24-2014, 11:15 AM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	OK. Let's wait close-up pictures. There are multiple possibilities.

12-28-2014, 03:53 PM	#13
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Here are the close-ups of the front grip strap. If I run my finger over the area, I can feel the "white" area is raised up a little, like it was welded and ground back down. I tried to show that in the picture but it is difficult to capture. I am convinced it is a repair of some sort. There is also a deep pit in the same area (only one). It does not look like it occurred naturally, as from rust, but rather from damage or a punch mark. The repaired area is a similar shape and location as a unit marking. Why would someone grind off unit marking? Here is a crazy idea: Maybe the owner was ashamed of what they had done and tried to remove evidence of a unit they were with by grinding off the unit marks? Then they or someone else repaired the ground down area? - Geo Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-28-2014, 07:50 PM	#14
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Remove the grips and examine the frame from the inside. You may be able to see evidence from damage or marks from stamping. Bob

12-28-2014, 07:51 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Maybe the owner was ashamed of what they had done and tried to remove evidence of a unit they were with by grinding off the unit marks? Not even a possibility. During the time unit marks were applied..German Soldiers were extremely proud of their service in WW1 and very patriotic. They did not lose the war. It was an agreement by the powers that they quit. Of course Germany was on the short end of it and paid reparations but the Soldiers came home proud. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-29-2014, 01:07 AM	#16
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Jerry, I appreciate what you are saying - I did say it was a crazy idea! __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

12-29-2014, 07:55 AM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	This may also be battle damage that was repaired at depot level.

01-06-2015, 10:32 PM	#19
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Finally got some time to take a couple pics of the inside - yes you can definitely see repaired damage on the inside. It looks like it was all the way through. Appears to be welded and then hit with a grinder. Repaired battle damage? - not the neatest repair job but I'll take it. - Geo Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

01-07-2015, 07:34 AM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Most battle damage comes from shell splinters. I once owned an MP44 that shot fine, but it was covered with small cuts and holes from splinter damage. Relic helmets you sometimes see online are good examples of this, as well. It is not too far fetched to imagine a shell splinter hitting a gun sitting in a holster on someone's waist in battle.