New Luger 1939- S/42 w/sear safety

whcoyote · 07-23-2012, 12:36 AM

Milburn:
1917/1920 indicates a 1917 pistol having the 1920 property stamp. These markings are on the receiver, of course, and indicate Weimar-period rework. You can discern the original manufacturer of the receiver by: (1) the style of firing proof mark (DWM and Erfurt proof eagles had different styles) This only works for receivers as late in the war you will find Erfurt-style firing proofs on the barrels and some breech blocks of original DWM pistols (lots of conjecture as to why - some think that an Erfurt inspector was reassigned to DWM and took his stamps with him); (2) the shape of the top of the numeral "3". If it is round-topped it was made at DWM, if it is flat-topped, it was made at Erfurt.
If this receiver, having the sight-clearance notch, came from DWM, it was originally an LP.08. If it came from Erfurt, it was a P.08 as Erfurt made no LP.08s marked other than 1914. However, as before, all late-war Erfurt P.08s had the clearance cut. DWM pistols did not have a clearance cut unless they were LP.08s - in any year.
It is not surprising that there is no caliber marking (bore size) on the barrel. As they were replaced during the rework - some were marked with the bore size, some were not. An interesting thing to look for is the shape of the "3" in your barrel S/N. If your pistol is a DWM and the tops of the "3" on the barrel S/N is flat, it was most certainly replaced. If it is a round-topped "3", it was probably still replaced as the absence of the bore dia. indicates. What do the acceptance stamps and firing proofs on the barrel look like?
Erfurt spare parts, machinery and numbering dies were sent to Simson & Co. after WWI and after that, some went to the Berlin Technical Police Armory after Simson & Co. was closed at the beginning of the Third Reich era. The rest of this apparatus went to Krieghoff.
Hard to tell why you may have a mix of DWM/Erfurt parts. You will need someone with more knowledge than me to tell, probably with a hands-on inspection. Why not start a new thread about your pistol, with good photos, and you will get plenty of responses.
As for "ears" there are two sets which could be called this. One set of "ears" are the toggle ramps, or toggle camming surfaces, found at the rear of the frame. The other set is found at the rear of the receiver forks (the receiver resembles a tuning fork at it's rear end) and this enlarged area is to provide reinforcement for the toggle axle.
As for nomenclature, the frame is the part of the pistol that has the grips attached, houses the trigger, recoil spring, hold-open device and has the toggle cams at the rear. The receiver fits into rails on top of the frame. It accepts the barrel at it's front and the toggle train is fitted into grooves at it's rear portion. The complete receiver assembly, including barrel and toggle train is referred to as the "cannon". As it might imply, the cannon may be loaded with a cartridge and fired without being assembled into the frame. I wouldn't recommend trying this as I have no idea what the consequences of recoil might be.
Hope this helps.
Bob

sheepherder · 07-23-2012, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

(2) the shape of the top of the numeral "3". If it is round-topped it was made at DWM, if it is flat-topped, it was made at Erfurt.

Interesting. I don't think I've seen that written up before. Is that from your own observations, or has it been written up in one of the many books that I've not read yet???

I have only one (of three) with a "3" in the serial, and it is a commercial with a DWM toggle.

sheepherder · 07-25-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

(2) the shape of the top of the numeral "3". If it is round-topped it was made at DWM, if it is flat-topped, it was made at Erfurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Interesting. I don't think I've seen that written up before. Is that from your own observations, or has it been written up in one of the many books that I've not read yet???.

whcoyote -

I asked because I was wondering if you have a large collection. There are a dozen or more members here who each have a dozen or more Lugers...I know there is at least one member who has over 100 Lugers!!!

Checking them over, perhaps with a magnifying glass (and a large glass of port) for differences/similarities in the number "3" sounds exactly like something they would do, on a slow night at home...

I don't have any kind of collection, but I was outside in my garage last night comparing connecting rods for Kohler 7hp tractor engines...and I found two that differed in length by 1/8"...

So I am certainly not disparaging your observation on the "3" stampings...I'd just like to see your collection!!!

07-23-2012, 12:36 AM	#1
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Milburn: 1917/1920 indicates a 1917 pistol having the 1920 property stamp. These markings are on the receiver, of course, and indicate Weimar-period rework. You can discern the original manufacturer of the receiver by: (1) the style of firing proof mark (DWM and Erfurt proof eagles had different styles) This only works for receivers as late in the war you will find Erfurt-style firing proofs on the barrels and some breech blocks of original DWM pistols (lots of conjecture as to why - some think that an Erfurt inspector was reassigned to DWM and took his stamps with him); (2) the shape of the top of the numeral "3". If it is round-topped it was made at DWM, if it is flat-topped, it was made at Erfurt. If this receiver, having the sight-clearance notch, came from DWM, it was originally an LP.08. If it came from Erfurt, it was a P.08 as Erfurt made no LP.08s marked other than 1914. However, as before, all late-war Erfurt P.08s had the clearance cut. DWM pistols did not have a clearance cut unless they were LP.08s - in any year. It is not surprising that there is no caliber marking (bore size) on the barrel. As they were replaced during the rework - some were marked with the bore size, some were not. An interesting thing to look for is the shape of the "3" in your barrel S/N. If your pistol is a DWM and the tops of the "3" on the barrel S/N is flat, it was most certainly replaced. If it is a round-topped "3", it was probably still replaced as the absence of the bore dia. indicates. What do the acceptance stamps and firing proofs on the barrel look like? Erfurt spare parts, machinery and numbering dies were sent to Simson & Co. after WWI and after that, some went to the Berlin Technical Police Armory after Simson & Co. was closed at the beginning of the Third Reich era. The rest of this apparatus went to Krieghoff. Hard to tell why you may have a mix of DWM/Erfurt parts. You will need someone with more knowledge than me to tell, probably with a hands-on inspection. Why not start a new thread about your pistol, with good photos, and you will get plenty of responses. As for "ears" there are two sets which could be called this. One set of "ears" are the toggle ramps, or toggle camming surfaces, found at the rear of the frame. The other set is found at the rear of the receiver forks (the receiver resembles a tuning fork at it's rear end) and this enlarged area is to provide reinforcement for the toggle axle. As for nomenclature, the frame is the part of the pistol that has the grips attached, houses the trigger, recoil spring, hold-open device and has the toggle cams at the rear. The receiver fits into rails on top of the frame. It accepts the barrel at it's front and the toggle train is fitted into grooves at it's rear portion. The complete receiver assembly, including barrel and toggle train is referred to as the "cannon". As it might imply, the cannon may be loaded with a cartridge and fired without being assembled into the frame. I wouldn't recommend trying this as I have no idea what the consequences of recoil might be. Hope this helps. Bob