Took the 1913 to an expert...IMPORTANT Strawing question

MyUserName · 06-20-2012, 12:20 AM

Important to me anyways!

Remember my 1913 bringback? ---> Link

I took my Luger to a gun shop to determine whether or not the blueing was original, or if it had been re-blued.

The shop appraiser was pretty incredulous concerning how well the weapon looked, and immediately thought that it had been re-blued. But he could not find any evidence proving that it had been re-blued. He disassembled the weapon, checking the bore like I asked him to (excellent condition). He looked for traces of grinding, or anywhere that the proofs or serial numbers or engravings were not sharp (it had been explained to me that this was an indicator of the weapon having been ground down to re-blue.

It was interesting to me as I watched him go over the weapon again and again, as e did not want to believe that it was still wearing it's original blueing.

Finally he let out a "aha!" He pointed out the strawing on center toggle link, or more accurately, the lack of strawing on the center toggle link. He said that it was supposed to be strawed, but that it wasn't, therefore the blueing was new. At the same time, he mentioned that it was the most impressive job he had seen.

I was bummed of course because it meant that I now did not have what I hoped I did, a really pristine luger, all original from 1913.

As soon as I returned home I started looking to see if in fact, the center toggle link is supposed to be strawed.

I looked at two sites, one is by Ted's Luger Strawing Service (a restorer that often goes by the screen name THOR). At his website I found that some of his restore jobs has the strawing on the center toggle link, and others don't.

Here are TWO 1915 DWMs---no strawing LINK and LINK

Here is a 1917 DWM --- no strawing LINK

Here is a double date 1918/1920 DWM----with strawing LINK

Here is another double date 1917/1920 DWM----with strawing LINK

My conclusion...the double dates have strawing on the center toggle, non double dated lugers have no strawing.

Part two http://www.lugerman.com is another site that offers professional blueing service for lugers.

Here is a restore he did on a 1917 DWM, and again... no blueing on the center toggle LINK

1910 DWM Luger no blueing on the center toggle LINK

1914 DWM Luger no blueing on the center toggle LINK

So... what do you guys think?

Ron Wood · 06-20-2012, 12:44 AM

I think your expert is a dork. I take from your post that the "center toggle link straw" is actually the extractor in the breechblock (that is the part that is strawed in Ted/Thor's photos)
Ted strawed that part probably because the owner wanted it strawed to add some "bling". The extractor on a 1913 or any other WWI era Luger was never strawed, it was always blued as on your gun.
By the way, there are three components to the toggle train, the rear toggle link (the part with the sight on it), the forward toggle link (the part with the DWM on it) and the breech block (the part with the extractor on it). There is no "center toggle link".
From what I can tell from your photos, there is nothing wrong with your Luger. Go back to the "shop appraiser" and tell him to brush up on his Luger skills, he is obviously out of his league right now.

SteveM · 06-20-2012, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyUserName

My conclusion...the double dates have strawing on the center toggle, non double dated lugers have no strawing.

So... what do you guys think?

You might look back through this site and find the list of parts that are supposed to be strawed and what years strawing was used on the small parts.

Edward Tinker · 06-20-2012, 12:54 PM

Faq should list those parts, if it doesn't I should add it. Few gunshops are luger experts...

I hate links...

Edward Tinker · 06-20-2012, 12:57 PM

Oh, find out about "double dates" most are not dates, so your reasoning is inaccurate...

MyUserName · 06-20-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I think your expert is a dork. I take from your post that the "center toggle link straw" is actually the extractor in the breechblock (that is the part that is strawed in Ted/Thor's photos)
Ted strawed that part probably because the owner wanted it strawed to add some "bling". The extractor on a 1913 or any other WWI era Luger was never strawed, it was always blued as on your gun.
By the way, there are three components to the toggle train, the rear toggle link (the part with the sight on it), the forward toggle link (the part with the DWM on it) and the breech block (the part with the extractor on it). There is no "center toggle link".
From what I can tell from your photos, there is nothing wrong with your Luger. Go back to the "shop appraiser" and tell him to brush up on his Luger skills, he is obviously out of his league right now.

LOL He may very well be a dork. I am going to try a different store today. I am hoping that what I have is a luger in such fine condition that the "expert appraisers" rare so stunned by it's state that they are making up sh*t in order to downplay the value.

Douglas Jr. · 06-20-2012, 03:57 PM

Why don't you try to meet of one of the members of this forum at a gun show that you can attend? I'm pretty sure that some people here could give you a much more accurate opinion on your Luger that any of such "experts".

Besides that, there is a rule in the collecting world: if you're not comfortable with an item, then let it go.

Think about it. Or just enjoy your Luger.

All the best,

Douglas

cirelaw · 06-20-2012, 04:22 PM

Everthing you need is here, Reblueing is a permanent as a Tatoo. Give it some real considering. Send pictures to Ted and see what he suggests! Trust me Its his love for his work and his devotion to the Man upstairs that fuels his passion more than the $$!

jamese · 06-21-2012, 06:55 AM

Jeremy,

You might want to add where you live to your profile.....many members on the forum can tell you if its a re-blue.

If you live close by one of the members who can help, it would be worth your time to meet with them and let them have a look, or get it done by sending to someone like Ron, Hugh, Ted or Ed etc... but driving all around town and getting opinions until you hear the one you like, is a waste of time.

Jim

DavidJayUden · 06-21-2012, 08:02 AM

I must have missed the part where the gun was determined to have been reblued. Specifically, what is anyone seeing on that gun that leads them to believe it is a re-blue? As much as I too hate links and little white squares, the toggle pin is white, there appear to be halos around the grip frame numbers, etc. Just a suspect lack of the wear expected on a 100 year old gun.
dju

Greg B. · 06-21-2012, 12:27 PM

Simpsons Ltd. offers an appraisal service but they also have lots of Lugers for sale. Maybe you can find a similar one on their web site and get an idea of the price. You have had some very knowledgeable guys comment on your gun and even if they did not personally examine it nothing seemed to have jumped out at them concerning the originality of the finish. Your local expert appears to have been grasping at "straws" in order to make you a low ball offer.
If that gun and holster were mine I would keep it.

Greg B.

Thor · 06-21-2012, 01:09 PM

The strawed extractors were on some BLING Lugers (Ron had it right) that were mirror polished as were the muzzle. Most of those Lugers I called "Total Doll Jobs" was just a way of sprucing up a SHOOTER LUGER, they do NOT in any way resemble any know Authentic Luger Variation. The Early American Eagles and Commercial Lugers did have a strawed extractor but they also have strawed toggle locks that make them a bit unique. 99% of the time I strive for full authentic restorations, but sometimes a client wants something different. As long as it is a mismatched Shooter Luger, I usually accomodate them.

Example of a TDJ or Total Doll Job, Salt Blued with mirror strawed parts including the extractor.

MyUserName · 06-25-2012, 02:15 PM

update:

Took the weapon to Martin Retting in Culver City.

The good news... the finish on the weapon is all original. It has not been re-blued or restrawed.

My next step is a trip to Little John's Auction service, where they have already said they have an interest in purchasing (not sure if I am selling yet).

They will at the very least give me a good idea of the value of the weapon.

06-20-2012, 12:20 AM	#1
MyUserName User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 20 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	Took the 1913 to an expert...IMPORTANT Strawing question Important to me anyways! Remember my 1913 bringback? ---> Link I took my Luger to a gun shop to determine whether or not the blueing was original, or if it had been re-blued. The shop appraiser was pretty incredulous concerning how well the weapon looked, and immediately thought that it had been re-blued. But he could not find any evidence proving that it had been re-blued. He disassembled the weapon, checking the bore like I asked him to (excellent condition). He looked for traces of grinding, or anywhere that the proofs or serial numbers or engravings were not sharp (it had been explained to me that this was an indicator of the weapon having been ground down to re-blue. It was interesting to me as I watched him go over the weapon again and again, as e did not want to believe that it was still wearing it's original blueing. Finally he let out a "aha!" He pointed out the strawing on center toggle link, or more accurately, the lack of strawing on the center toggle link. He said that it was supposed to be strawed, but that it wasn't, therefore the blueing was new. At the same time, he mentioned that it was the most impressive job he had seen. I was bummed of course because it meant that I now did not have what I hoped I did, a really pristine luger, all original from 1913. As soon as I returned home I started looking to see if in fact, the center toggle link is supposed to be strawed. I looked at two sites, one is by Ted's Luger Strawing Service (a restorer that often goes by the screen name THOR). At his website I found that some of his restore jobs has the strawing on the center toggle link, and others don't. Here are TWO 1915 DWMs---no strawing LINK and LINK Here is a 1917 DWM --- no strawing LINK Here is a double date 1918/1920 DWM----with strawing LINK Here is another double date 1917/1920 DWM----with strawing LINK My conclusion...the double dates have strawing on the center toggle, non double dated lugers have no strawing. Part two http://www.lugerman.com is another site that offers professional blueing service for lugers. Here is a restore he did on a 1917 DWM, and again... no blueing on the center toggle LINK 1910 DWM Luger no blueing on the center toggle LINK 1914 DWM Luger no blueing on the center toggle LINK So... what do you guys think?

06-20-2012, 12:44 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,990 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I think your expert is a dork. I take from your post that the "center toggle link straw" is actually the extractor in the breechblock (that is the part that is strawed in Ted/Thor's photos) Ted strawed that part probably because the owner wanted it strawed to add some "bling". The extractor on a 1913 or any other WWI era Luger was never strawed, it was always blued as on your gun. By the way, there are three components to the toggle train, the rear toggle link (the part with the sight on it), the forward toggle link (the part with the DWM on it) and the breech block (the part with the extractor on it). There is no "center toggle link". From what I can tell from your photos, there is nothing wrong with your Luger. Go back to the "shop appraiser" and tell him to brush up on his Luger skills, he is obviously out of his league right now. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-20-2012, 12:57 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Oh, find out about "double dates" most are not dates, so your reasoning is inaccurate... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-21-2012, 06:55 AM	#9
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Jeremy, You might want to add where you live to your profile.....many members on the forum can tell you if its a re-blue. If you live close by one of the members who can help, it would be worth your time to meet with them and let them have a look, or get it done by sending to someone like Ron, Hugh, Ted or Ed etc... but driving all around town and getting opinions until you hear the one you like, is a waste of time. Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

06-21-2012, 01:09 PM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The strawed extractors were on some BLING Lugers (Ron had it right) that were mirror polished as were the muzzle. Most of those Lugers I called "Total Doll Jobs" was just a way of sprucing up a SHOOTER LUGER, they do NOT in any way resemble any know Authentic Luger Variation. The Early American Eagles and Commercial Lugers did have a strawed extractor but they also have strawed toggle locks that make them a bit unique. 99% of the time I strive for full authentic restorations, but sometimes a client wants something different. As long as it is a mismatched Shooter Luger, I usually accomodate them. Example of a TDJ or Total Doll Job, Salt Blued with mirror strawed parts including the extractor. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-20-2012, 12:54 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Faq should list those parts, if it doesn't I should add it. Few gunshops are luger experts... I hate links...

06-20-2012, 03:57 PM	#7
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Why don't you try to meet of one of the members of this forum at a gun show that you can attend? I'm pretty sure that some people here could give you a much more accurate opinion on your Luger that any of such "experts". Besides that, there is a rule in the collecting world: if you're not comfortable with an item, then let it go. Think about it. Or just enjoy your Luger. All the best, Douglas

06-20-2012, 04:22 PM	#8
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Everthing you need is here, Reblueing is a permanent as a Tatoo. Give it some real considering. Send pictures to Ted and see what he suggests! Trust me Its his love for his work and his devotion to the Man upstairs that fuels his passion more than the $$!

06-21-2012, 08:02 AM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I must have missed the part where the gun was determined to have been reblued. Specifically, what is anyone seeing on that gun that leads them to believe it is a re-blue? As much as I too hate links and little white squares, the toggle pin is white, there appear to be halos around the grip frame numbers, etc. Just a suspect lack of the wear expected on a 100 year old gun. dju

06-21-2012, 12:27 PM	#11
Greg B. User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 34 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Simpsons Ltd. offers an appraisal service but they also have lots of Lugers for sale. Maybe you can find a similar one on their web site and get an idea of the price. You have had some very knowledgeable guys comment on your gun and even if they did not personally examine it nothing seemed to have jumped out at them concerning the originality of the finish. Your local expert appears to have been grasping at "straws" in order to make you a low ball offer. If that gun and holster were mine I would keep it. Greg B.

06-25-2012, 02:15 PM	#13
MyUserName User Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 20 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8 Times in 2 Posts	update: Took the weapon to Martin Retting in Culver City. The good news... the finish on the weapon is all original. It has not been re-blued or restrawed. My next step is a trip to Little John's Auction service, where they have already said they have an interest in purchasing (not sure if I am selling yet). They will at the very least give me a good idea of the value of the weapon.