1913 DWM bringback (with Holster)

[MyUserName]

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Now for sale on the Luger Forum trading board *WTS* ... The 1913 DWM I've been discussing here.


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Hi everyone.

I'm sure you have heard this story before.

I have been holding on to this Luger for some 40 years now. Have kept it in a box, never fired it.

I pulled it out last week and started doing some research, and now that I feel somewhat comfortable with terminology I have come to this board looking for feedback.

I did not clean the weapon prior to taking these photos, you can even see my fingerprints on some of the pictures.

So what do you guys think?

I am considering selling it, but I am kind of stuck as I have no paperwork, and I am certain that this weapon has never been registered. What should I do?

[Balder]

Wow... 99 years old and looking like it left the DWM factory a few days ago. Welcome to the forum, the experts will soon chime in.

Balder

[alanint]

Welcome and Congratulations!!

You have a nearly pristine early 1913 dated P08 pistol. Does the magazine have a number on it? Does it match the gun?
Your pistol has had the holdopen retroactively added to it, (which is correct), but otherwise looks complete and correct. This is a valuable collector's piece.
Photos of the holster and any spare mag or tool would also be useful.

[MyUserName]

Whoops. More details...


All Serial numbers match except magazine

Weapon xx92 a
Magazine 1016e

Holster has some markings, which I cannot identify.

This is on inside flap..

F. A R G
1913

The "F" might be a "P" and the "G" might be a "6" Black ink.

[IMG][/IMG]

On the outside, back of holster it is stamped "865". I do not know if this holster is original to the weapon.




Maker of the holster?

STEINMETZ
BRExxxx

[MyUserName]

Last three shots...

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jeremy, Your holster is a Police configuration. It was converted (shortened) from an 8" Artillery holster.
Nice pistol.
I am curious to know if this pistol has been stored in this holster?
You don't say where you live..that could have some bearing on selling your pistol.
You really should not allow fingerprints to linger..They are caustic, acidic and salty. They will etch into the blue of your pistol in short order. Lightly oil the pistol with whatever oil you have handy, I use sewing machine or household oil, and gently wipe the pistol with a clean terrycloth rag.

[Norme]

Hi Jeremy, You have a very nice 1913 DWM, which appears to be in original condition. The holster was originally made for an Artillery Luger and was shortened, and the magazine pouch and lid stud added, to convert it for police use during the Weimar era. The 965 is a Police number, the ink stamped F.A.R.6 is a unit mark for an Artillery Regiment. Regards, Norm

[MyUserName]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Jeremy, Your holster is a Police configuration. It was converted (shortened) from an 8" Artillery holster.

Well that is interesting. How is that easier than just making a new one? Or was there a cow shortage in Germany at the time? (badly attempted leather shortage joke)

Nice pistol.

Thanks, I think so as well

I am curious to know if this pistol has been stored in this holster?

Yes it has


You don't say where you live..that could have some bearing on selling your pistol.

Los Angeles. Which will probably make things difficult. It might be easier for my sister in Texas to sell it for me.

You really should not allow fingerprints to linger..They are caustic, acidic and salty.

Great. My wife says the same thing about me. (not a joke, sadly)

They will etch into the blue of your pistol in short order. Lightly oil the pistol with whatever oil you have handy, I use sewing machine or household oil, and gently wipe the pistol with a clean terrycloth rag.

Thanks for the info!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jeremy..The Germans during the 1920's..the depression years ..were quite frugal. It all boiled down to expense of labor and materials. When the order came down to dye all holsters black there were many that were not done as there was no money for dye. Many if not most holsters were not dyed on the back for the same reason..dye was expensive.
So it undoubtably saved some little bit of money to convert a holster rather than make another.

Los Angeles shouldn't be a problem selling. You just need to send the pistol to the buyer once he provides you with a licence. Buying in Kalifornia would be the problem...

yes..this pistol has been stored in this holster. This confirms my thoughts.

Jerry

[mlmahon]

Congratulations! The holster has definitely seen better days but that is one beautiful pistol, my friend!

Enjoy,

-ML

[Hugo Borchardt]

Welcome! Very nice one!

[MyUserName]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Jeremy, You have a very nice 1913 DWM, which appears to be in original condition. The holster was originally made for an Artillery Luger and was shortened, and the magazine pouch and lid stud added, to convert it for police use during the Weimar era. The 965 is a Police number, the ink stamped F.A.R.6 is a unit mark for an Artillery Regiment. Regards, Norm

The holster was used by a member of the F.AR 6 Feldartillerie-Regiment von Peucker (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 6.

The 6th was subordinate to The 11th Division at the beginning of WW1, but was later reorganized into the 235 Division (Deutsches Kaiserreich)

The 11th Division (11. Division) was a unit of the Prussian/German Army. It was formed in Breslau (now Wrocław, Poland) in November 1816 as a brigade, and became the 11th Division on September 5, 1818.The division was subordinated in peacetime to the VI Army Corps (VI. Armeekorps). The division was disbanded in 1919 during the demobilization of the German Army after World War I. The division was recruited primarily in the Province of Silesia, mainly in the region of Lower Silesia.

Combat chronicle

In World War I, the division served on the Western Front. It spent most of the war in various parts of the trenches and fought in the 1916 Battle of the Somme.

Pre-World War I organization
German divisions underwent various organizational changes after the Franco-Prussian War. The organization of the 11th Division in 1914, shortly before the outbreak of World War I, was as follows:

• 21. Infanterie-Brigade:
  -Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich Wilhelm II. (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 10
  -Füsilier-Regiment General-Feldmarschall Graf Moltke (Schlesisches) Nr. 38
• 22.Infanterie-Brigade:
  -Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich III. (2. Schlesisches) Nr. 11
  -4. Schlesisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 51
• 11. Kavallerie-Brigade
  -Leib-Kürassier-Regiment Großer Kurfürst (Schlesisches) Nr. 1
  -Dragoner-Regiment König Friedrich III. (2. Schlesisches) Nr. 8
• 11. Feldartillerie-Brigade:
  -Feldartillerie-Regiment von Peucker (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 6
  -2. Schlesisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 42
• Landwehr-Inspektion Breslau

Order of battle on mobilization

On mobilization in August 1914 at the beginning of World War I, most divisional cavalry, including brigade headquarters, was withdrawn to form cavalry divisions or split up among divisions as reconnaissance units. Divisions received engineer companies and other support units from their higher headquarters. The 11th Division was again renamed the 11th Infantry Division. Its initial wartime organization was as follows:

• 21. Infanterie-Brigade:
  -Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich Wilhelm II. (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 10
  -Füsilier-Regiment General-Feldmarschall Graf Moltke (Schlesisches) Nr. 38
• 22.Infanterie-Brigade:
  -Grenadier-Regiment König Friedrich III. (2. Schlesisches) Nr. 11
  -4. Schlesisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 51
• Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 11
• 11. Feldartillerie-Brigade:
  -Feldartillerie-Regiment von Peucker (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 6
  -2. Schlesisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 42
• 1.Kompanie/Schlesisches Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 6

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/235._Di...es_Kaiserreich)

235. Division (Deutsches Kaiserreich)


Die 235. Division wurde am 16. Januar 1917 zusammengestellt und war ein Großverband des deutschen Heeres im Ersten Weltkrieg.



Kriegsgliederung 1918 Gliederung

• 235. Infanterie-Brigade
  -Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 454
  -Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 455
  -Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 456
  -5. Eskadron/Dragoner-Regiment „König Karl I. von Rumänien“ (1. Hannoversches) Nr. 9
• Artillerie-Kommandeur Nr. 235
  -Feldartillerie-Regiment „von Peucker“ (1. Schlesisches) Nr. 6
• Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 235
• Divisions-Nachrichten-Kommandeur Nr. 235

Gefechtskalender This unit participated on both fronts Eastern Front and Western front

Die Division wurde im Verlauf des Ersten Weltkriegs ausschließlich an der Westfront eingesetzt und dort am 10. August 1918 aufgelöst.

1917
16. März bis 20. Juni --- Kämpfe vor der Siegfriedstellung
21. Juni bis 23. Juli --- Kämpfe in der Siegfriedstellung
27. Juli bis 2. August --- Schlacht in Flandern
3. August bis 23. Oktober --- Stellungskämpfe am Chemin des Dames
24. Oktober bis 2. November --- Nachhutkämpfe an und südlich der Ailette
ab 3. November --- Stellungskämpfe nördlich der Ailette

1918
bis 9. Februar --- Stellungskämpfe nördlich der Ailette
9. Februar bis 20. April --- Stellungskämpfe im Oberelsass
9. bis 18. April --- Schlacht bei Armentières
20. bis 30. April --- Stellungskämpfe in Flandern und Artois
1. bis 13. Mai --- Stellungskämpfe in Flandern und Artois
15. Mai bis 8. Juni --- Stellungskämpfe auf den Maashöhen bei Lamorville-Spada und St. Mihiel
19. Juni bis 8. August --- Stellungskämpfe zwischen Maas und Mosel, auf den Maashöhen südöstlich Verdun
10. August --- Auflösung der Division

[Edward Tinker]

unless the luger is unit marked, then its history is lost to time.

any story from the family of how it was brought back?

There are millions of guns not 'registered', not a big deal, and as said above, as long as you get a Federal Firearms License (dealer or collector) in your hands and you keep it, then you have passed it along and the dealer or collector will add it to their records, thus 'registering' it.

ed

[MyUserName]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

unless the luger is unit marked, then its history is lost to time.

*sigh* Well that kinda sucks. I guess the Germans did not keep records of weapon allocations??? Seems odd for the Germans.

any story from the family of how it was brought back?


It is a long tawdry story involving a scullerymaid, an Italian priest turned guerilla cell leader, a dashing young SS officer, and two goats.

(Actually that is not true. With more time I can get into the story here, but time is pressing.)

There are millions of guns not 'registered', not a big deal, and as said above, as long as you get a Federal Firearms License (dealer or collector) in your hands and you keep it, then you have passed it along and the dealer or collector will add it to their records, thus 'registering' it.

ed

Interesting. Thanks

[lugerholsterrepair]

I guess the Germans did not keep records of weapon allocations??? Seems odd for the Germans.

The Germans kept very good records of all sorts of things that would be interesting to collectors today but when the Russians got there they wern't interested..They planted enough explosives to turn it all into confetti!

[cdmech]

[QUOTE=lugerholsterrepair;214587] Buying in Kalifornia would be the problem...


I'm wondering why you feel buying this pistol in "Kalifornia" would be problem. This pistol is a C&R, and could be transfered easily through any FFL.
Also, I believe the only handguns that get registered are ones being sold or transfered and ones being brought into California by their owners for the first time. I'm not aware of a requirement to register handguns that you have owned for 40 years.
Marc

[SteveM]

Only 25K or so made in 1913, No stock lug on that one.

[CavScoutEurope]

Why would you have to get it registered? Do you live in one of those states that requiers it? I'm glad I live in Virginia!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by MyUserName

It is a long tawdry story involving a scullerymaid, an Italian priest turned guerilla cell leader, a dashing young SS officer, and two goats.

... ...

Jeremy -

Thanks for adding that! It is refreshing to see that someone else here also has a sense of humor...

[MyUserName]

Originally Posted by postino

... ...

Jeremy -

Thanks for adding that! It is refreshing to see that someone else here also has a sense of humor...

There were further implications with the Holy See and a Bulgarian socialite.

I didn't want to bore anyone here with the details.



J