My Grandfather's Luger

apis mellifera · 10-16-2011, 08:42 PM

Last weekend my Grandmother came to visit for my son's birthday and surprised me with this present: It belonged to my Grandfather who go it from his father-in-law. It's not in the greatest condition and is not the hot ticket for collectors, but this one will be mine for the duration.

The thing that has me concerned is several years ago I cleaned out his old ammo and brought home two boxes of old green and red boxed Remington in 30 Luger. There were empty cases with the live rounds and all the empties have a large bulge in the brass. It's almost like they were fired in a pistol with a wallowed out chamber. I thoroughly inspected the gun and aside from the worn finish and million-dollar chip, the gun is damage free.

This Luger is the only firearm Grandpa had in 30 Luger so part of me thinks the empties are from this gun. However, yesterday I fired three rounds from the same box and the empties all look normal. See picture: Outer L&R were fired yesterday. Inner two were in the box. Furthermore, I don't know how any pistol could produce such a casing and still extract it.

Anyway, I'm baffled. Has anyone seen this before or care to speculate.

Finally, all numbers match except for the hold open is one digit off. Anything could have happen since the early 20s, but is there any documented occurrence of a Luger leaving the factory this way?

I'm debating on having the chip fixed and putting the "correct" HO in, but right now, I'm leaning toward leaving it the way Grandpa left it.

nukem556 · 10-16-2011, 08:46 PM

if you fired the outer 2, you're fine.....who knows where the other ones came from, range pickups i'd guess...I would go over the gun with some oil and 0000 steel or brass wool

alanint · 10-16-2011, 09:19 PM

Possibly .30 caliber Luger fired in a 9mm gun? Interesting double stamped "Germany" on your gun...

MFC · 10-16-2011, 10:17 PM

Hi Matt,
The original holdopen was not numbered. It probably broke and was replaced with a numbered one.

Olle · 10-17-2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Possibly .30 caliber Luger fired in a 9mm gun?

Yeah, those bulges are huge... I have sure seen a lot of rough chambers, but never one that bulged the shells that bad.

alanint · 10-17-2011, 10:23 AM

Remember that bulges can also occur as extration is taking place. Cases are held in the chamber partially through heat adhesion. A round which is not delayed that microsecond through heat adhesion may be bulging as it is coming out of the chamber. Firing a 30 Luger in a 9mm chamber would cause a gas bubble behind the bullet at the area where the cartridge is necked down, forcing the round out of the chamber sooner than the complete burning of the propellant. If the case has left the support of the chamber walls an is still expanding as it extracts you will get these types of bulges.

Anybody want to try this out to see what happens? 8^)

Olle · 10-17-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Remember that bulges can also occur as extration is taking place. Cases are held in the chamber partially through heat adhesion. A round which is not delayed that microsecond through heat adhesion may be bulging as it is coming out of the chamber. Firing a 30 Luger in a 9mm chamber would cause a gas bubble behind the bullet at the area where the cartridge is necked down, forcing the round out of the chamber sooner than the complete burning of the propellant. If the case has left the support of the chamber walls an is still expanding as it extracts you will get these types of bulges.

Anybody want to try this out to see what happens? 8^)

That would make sense. The rim diameter is about the same on both calibers, and the bulge appears to be larger than any of those chambers would be. Unless it's a .45 Luger... ?

alanint · 10-17-2011, 01:43 PM

I see this often at the range when people attempt to fire .32 ACP in .380 ACP pistols.

I once watched a guy actually empty a whole magazine in a Walther PPK/S. He complained about the gun's accuracy, which I thought strange out of a quality pocket pistol like the Walther. It wasn't until I looked at his bulged spent brass that I realized he had managed to fire an entire magazine of .32 ACP in a .380 ACP pistol. Amazing that the pistol actually fed, fired and extracted 7 rounds of the undersized cartridge.

apis mellifera · 10-17-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

I see this often at the range when people attempt to fire .32 ACP in .380 ACP pistols.

I think you may be on to something. I inspected each of the bulged cases and each one has a heavy primer strike that is offset toward the side with the bulge. If you compare the normal casing in the upper right that I fired Saturday with a bulged casing, you'll see. If it is a case of the wrong ammo in the wrong gun, I don't know which gun would allow a 30 Luger to feed, fire, and eject, but whoever and whatever it was, the seven empties suggests they also got through a full mag.

glock30 · 10-17-2011, 07:19 PM

If you fired three and they look normal, what is the problem? I don't understand, you didn't fire these. Can I politely ask you....... Do you like to worry? Don't, it isn't healthy. And if you think it isn't something a collector would want, I'll take it. A Luger is a Luger in my book, ALso it was free , I would be in my glory if someone gave me a free Luger. thus not be worried about cases that you don't even know where they came from.
as far as a 380 firing a .32acp, that is easy, the case is the exact same height, the RIM of the .380 is only a 3/10th's of a mm thicker than the .32 not much, SO IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME.

What does surprise me is people eating ketchup on HotDog's. No one, I mean no one, eats ketchup on a hot dog.,,,,,,,,,

apis mellifera · 10-17-2011, 08:09 PM

Actually scientists are now saying that worry is good for you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...r-1668202.html

That's good news for the many Americans who chose to live above their means in recent years. 100% of the fingers on my shooting hand also agree that a three round test might not be enough in this case. When taking possession of an unknown firearm and finding some abnormal casings in with the live rounds, I believe some level of due diligence is necessary. Part of that includes asking experts if they have seen similar results and "thinking out loud" to illuminate possible explanations.

While there is a buyer for every Luger, an Alphabet isn't a rare model sought by collectors. It is, however, the only Luger my Grandfather had and the only one he left to me when he died and while I did not pay for this pistol, it was not free.

Mayonnaise and sweet relish on mine, thanks.

alanint · 10-17-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock30

If you fired three and they look normal, what is the problem? I don't understand, you didn't fire these. Can I politely ask you....... Do you like to worry? Don't, it isn't healthy. And if you think it isn't something a collector would want, I'll take it. A Luger is a Luger in my book, ALso it was free , I would be in my glory if someone gave me a free Luger. thus not be worried about cases that you don't even know where they came from.
as far as a 380 firing a .32acp, that is easy, the case is the exact same height, the RIM of the .380 is only a 3/10th's of a mm thicker than the .32 not much, SO IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME.

What does surprise me is people eating ketchup on HotDog's. No one, I mean no one, eats ketchup on a hot dog.,,,,,,,,,

Ok, Callahan....

HisSoldier · 10-17-2011, 10:21 PM

A round which is not delayed that microsecond through heat adhesion may be bulging as it is coming out of the chamber. Firing a 30 Luger in a 9mm chamber would cause a gas bubble behind the bullet at the area where the cartridge is necked down, forcing the round out of the chamber sooner than the complete burning of the propellant

No offense, but I have trouble believing that, I've seen P08's with 16" barrels, which (It seemeth to me) should have more left over pressure than a normal or 6" barrelled gun, although it's also possible that the gas expansion down a 16" barrel might be enough of a drop in pressure to keep cases from bulging. The unknown, for me, is how much pressure remains from a .30 Luger round at the moment the action begins extraction (The actual releasing of the locking). The cartridge cannot come out until that moment. I hope I didn't come across too harshly, I've been too wrong too many timer to think I'm always right. Either that or you are describing something else?
It looks to me like range brass that someone fired in a 9MM chamber, I'm guilty of that myself! I bought a CZ 24 once, I couldn't get .380 rounds in the mag and (Silly me.) I assumed that they must have made some CZ 24's in .32, a whole magazine and I can barely keep the rounds on the target at 10 feet! I look at the cases at my feet and they looked like that, turns out the former owner sent me a magazine from one of his CZ 27's. Went right over my head to check the chamber and exit bunghole. The magazine fit perfectly of course.

Aaron · 10-18-2011, 01:28 PM

My guess is that the bulged cases were fired in another 9mm Luger belonging to a friend or an acquaintance. Or perhaps your grandpa owned a 9mm Luger, thought it was defective, and got rid of it.

alanint · 10-18-2011, 04:43 PM

Exactly what I have been saying all along.

DavidJayUden · 10-18-2011, 05:06 PM

I'd say don't sweat it. Clean, lube and inspect the gun, then go to the range. Wear your eye and ear protection as always and shoot the correct ammo. Maybe check each fired case for signs of problems until you get tireed of that.
I bought an artillery Luger with a clearly bulged barrel. Shoots very well...
dju

apis mellifera · 10-18-2011, 05:23 PM

If a 30 Luger was fired in a 9mm, I'd expect at most the neck to be bulged since the 30 case is basically the same diameter as the 9 from the neck back. These cases are bulged LARGER than a 9mm. The case is bulged to .410, while a 9mm is in the .380 neighborhood. The primer strike is .220 from the edge of the rim. Assuming the firing pin of whatever gun fired these was centered, that would make the caliber around .440.

My Grandfather had a 1917 Colt that was .45, but I can't imagine mistaking a 30 Luger for a 45 ACP.

It's hard to say what happened, but the CSI treatment is fun.

Patronen · 10-18-2011, 09:49 PM

Since we will throw the doors of all speculation open. I Don't know if it would work because I've never tried it, but maybe someone tried .30 Luger in a Broomhandle .30 Mauser?

sheepherder · 10-18-2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apis mellifera

Has anyone seen this before...

Yes, I have. About 20 years ago, I wanted a stainless steel 45 cal Gov't Model. At a gun show I found a used AMT 45 in stainless for [IIRC] $275...I offered $250 and we ended up splitting the difference...

When I fired it, the cases looked just like yours [bulged]. The chamber was cut oversize. How, I don't know. It was offset slightly as well. It was the original AMT barrel, and I thought I'd just replace the barrel with a carbon steel Colt barrel. I ended up trading it for something else before I could get around to it...

Point is, there are barrels with oversize chambers. The how is the mystery...

(I think AMT called it the 'Hardballer'...)

10-16-2011, 08:42 PM	#1
apis mellifera User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: WV Posts: 149 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 8 Posts	My Grandfather's Luger Last weekend my Grandmother came to visit for my son's birthday and surprised me with this present: It belonged to my Grandfather who go it from his father-in-law. It's not in the greatest condition and is not the hot ticket for collectors, but this one will be mine for the duration. The thing that has me concerned is several years ago I cleaned out his old ammo and brought home two boxes of old green and red boxed Remington in 30 Luger. There were empty cases with the live rounds and all the empties have a large bulge in the brass. It's almost like they were fired in a pistol with a wallowed out chamber. I thoroughly inspected the gun and aside from the worn finish and million-dollar chip, the gun is damage free. This Luger is the only firearm Grandpa had in 30 Luger so part of me thinks the empties are from this gun. However, yesterday I fired three rounds from the same box and the empties all look normal. See picture: Outer L&R were fired yesterday. Inner two were in the box. Furthermore, I don't know how any pistol could produce such a casing and still extract it. Anyway, I'm baffled. Has anyone seen this before or care to speculate. Finally, all numbers match except for the hold open is one digit off. Anything could have happen since the early 20s, but is there any documented occurrence of a Luger leaving the factory this way? I'm debating on having the chip fixed and putting the "correct" HO in, but right now, I'm leaning toward leaving it the way Grandpa left it. Attached Thumbnails

10-16-2011, 10:17 PM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Matt, The original holdopen was not numbered. It probably broke and was replaced with a numbered one. __________________ Mike C.

10-17-2011, 10:23 AM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Remember that bulges can also occur as extration is taking place. Cases are held in the chamber partially through heat adhesion. A round which is not delayed that microsecond through heat adhesion may be bulging as it is coming out of the chamber. Firing a 30 Luger in a 9mm chamber would cause a gas bubble behind the bullet at the area where the cartridge is necked down, forcing the round out of the chamber sooner than the complete burning of the propellant. If the case has left the support of the chamber walls an is still expanding as it extracts you will get these types of bulges. Anybody want to try this out to see what happens? 8^) Last edited by alanint; 10-17-2011 at 09:06 PM.

10-17-2011, 10:21 PM	#13
HisSoldier User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oregon Coast Posts: 95 Thanks: 1 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	A round which is not delayed that microsecond through heat adhesion may be bulging as it is coming out of the chamber. Firing a 30 Luger in a 9mm chamber would cause a gas bubble behind the bullet at the area where the cartridge is necked down, forcing the round out of the chamber sooner than the complete burning of the propellant No offense, but I have trouble believing that, I've seen P08's with 16" barrels, which (It seemeth to me) should have more left over pressure than a normal or 6" barrelled gun, although it's also possible that the gas expansion down a 16" barrel might be enough of a drop in pressure to keep cases from bulging. The unknown, for me, is how much pressure remains from a .30 Luger round at the moment the action begins extraction (The actual releasing of the locking). The cartridge cannot come out until that moment. I hope I didn't come across too harshly, I've been too wrong too many timer to think I'm always right. Either that or you are describing something else? It looks to me like range brass that someone fired in a 9MM chamber, I'm guilty of that myself! I bought a CZ 24 once, I couldn't get .380 rounds in the mag and (Silly me.) I assumed that they must have made some CZ 24's in .32, a whole magazine and I can barely keep the rounds on the target at 10 feet! I look at the cases at my feet and they looked like that, turns out the former owner sent me a magazine from one of his CZ 27's. Went right over my head to check the chamber and exit bunghole. The magazine fit perfectly of course. __________________ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

10-16-2011, 08:46 PM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	if you fired the outer 2, you're fine.....who knows where the other ones came from, range pickups i'd guess...I would go over the gun with some oil and 0000 steel or brass wool

10-16-2011, 09:19 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Possibly .30 caliber Luger fired in a 9mm gun? Interesting double stamped "Germany" on your gun...

10-17-2011, 01:43 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I see this often at the range when people attempt to fire .32 ACP in .380 ACP pistols. I once watched a guy actually empty a whole magazine in a Walther PPK/S. He complained about the gun's accuracy, which I thought strange out of a quality pocket pistol like the Walther. It wasn't until I looked at his bulged spent brass that I realized he had managed to fire an entire magazine of .32 ACP in a .380 ACP pistol. Amazing that the pistol actually fed, fired and extracted 7 rounds of the undersized cartridge.

10-17-2011, 07:19 PM	#10
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	If you fired three and they look normal, what is the problem? I don't understand, you didn't fire these. Can I politely ask you....... Do you like to worry? Don't, it isn't healthy. And if you think it isn't something a collector would want, I'll take it. A Luger is a Luger in my book, ALso it was free , I would be in my glory if someone gave me a free Luger. thus not be worried about cases that you don't even know where they came from. as far as a 380 firing a .32acp, that is easy, the case is the exact same height, the RIM of the .380 is only a 3/10th's of a mm thicker than the .32 not much, SO IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME. What does surprise me is people eating ketchup on HotDog's. No one, I mean no one, eats ketchup on a hot dog.,,,,,,,,,

10-17-2011, 08:09 PM	#11
apis mellifera User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: WV Posts: 149 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 8 Posts	Actually scientists are now saying that worry is good for you. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...r-1668202.html That's good news for the many Americans who chose to live above their means in recent years. 100% of the fingers on my shooting hand also agree that a three round test might not be enough in this case. When taking possession of an unknown firearm and finding some abnormal casings in with the live rounds, I believe some level of due diligence is necessary. Part of that includes asking experts if they have seen similar results and "thinking out loud" to illuminate possible explanations. While there is a buyer for every Luger, an Alphabet isn't a rare model sought by collectors. It is, however, the only Luger my Grandfather had and the only one he left to me when he died and while I did not pay for this pistol, it was not free. Mayonnaise and sweet relish on mine, thanks.

10-18-2011, 01:28 PM	#14
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	My guess is that the bulged cases were fired in another 9mm Luger belonging to a friend or an acquaintance. Or perhaps your grandpa owned a 9mm Luger, thought it was defective, and got rid of it.

10-18-2011, 04:43 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Exactly what I have been saying all along.

10-18-2011, 05:06 PM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd say don't sweat it. Clean, lube and inspect the gun, then go to the range. Wear your eye and ear protection as always and shoot the correct ammo. Maybe check each fired case for signs of problems until you get tireed of that. I bought an artillery Luger with a clearly bulged barrel. Shoots very well... dju

10-18-2011, 05:23 PM	#17
apis mellifera User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: WV Posts: 149 Thanks: 3 Thanked 24 Times in 8 Posts	If a 30 Luger was fired in a 9mm, I'd expect at most the neck to be bulged since the 30 case is basically the same diameter as the 9 from the neck back. These cases are bulged LARGER than a 9mm. The case is bulged to .410, while a 9mm is in the .380 neighborhood. The primer strike is .220 from the edge of the rim. Assuming the firing pin of whatever gun fired these was centered, that would make the caliber around .440. My Grandfather had a 1917 Colt that was .45, but I can't imagine mistaking a 30 Luger for a 45 ACP. It's hard to say what happened, but the CSI treatment is fun.

10-18-2011, 09:49 PM	#18
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Since we will throw the doors of all speculation open. I Don't know if it would work because I've never tried it, but maybe someone tried .30 Luger in a Broomhandle .30 Mauser?