1933 Erfurt

Solothurn · 09-13-2011, 12:08 PM

Can you give me any details on this Luger. It is a recent inheritance that was most likely a WWII bring-back.

There are eagle and castle proofs that I don't know the proper designations for. It appears to be all matching numbers. What condition would this be considered?

alanint · 09-13-2011, 03:19 PM

Welcome to the forum!

Although your gun's numbers all seem to be the same, your gun is a mismatch, as Erfurt produced no Lugers after 1918. A clear photo of the front of your frame would help considerably, as this would tell us if the frame is Erfurt. The area just above the trigger guard seems very odd in profile and may have been ground down or otherwise modified. Please also photograph the proofs on the pistol's right side just behind the barrel. The "K I" above the chamber date is interesting and members with knowledge of this marking will, I'm sure, comment on this.
Your holster looks like a Police model, which has been modified back into a military configuration, which may give a clue as to the pistol's origin. Photos of all the markings on the holster would also help in supplying you with more information.

mrerick · 09-13-2011, 10:14 PM

Looks like there is a C/U proof on the Right of the receiver. Can't make out the other one(s)...

Marc

MFC · 09-13-2011, 11:12 PM

Hi Solothurn,
Welcome to the forum. All Erfurt lugers are military. I think this may possibly be an all matching Erfurt that has had the date scrubbed and the Ki/1933 added. The Ki supposedly stands for Kadette Institute. There is a DWM with the same stamp on the James Julia auction site. The desciption states that the stamp was recently added.
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_....asp?pageREQ=1
(Lot #1122)

dz · 09-14-2011, 07:19 AM

As I mentioned to you in a private message, the book 'Weimar Lugers' has a description of this luger with possible explainations of its use and origin. As to your questions on condition, just good condition for a well used luger. David

Norme · 09-14-2011, 10:28 AM

As a matter of general interest, the holster was never a Police holster. It started life as an Artillery and was converted, post war, to P08 military configuration. The original thread holes for the cleaning rod sheath are clearly visible in the photo. Regards, Norm

Solothurn · 09-18-2011, 09:45 PM

..

Edward Tinker · 09-18-2011, 11:02 PM

The KI 1933 has received a lot of comments over the years, and you find many Erfurts with this marking.

What the KI stands for is unknown, many people feel it means Kadeten Institute (sp) or was for concentration camps. The concentration camp has pretty much been discarded, the other is in discussion.

Ed

Don M · 09-19-2011, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

I think this may possibly be an all matching Erfurt that has had the date scrubbed and the Ki/1933 added.

The shallow tangent sight notch at the front of the chamber supports this.

DavidJayUden · 09-19-2011, 12:07 PM

Is there any sign that the surface beneath the date has been taken down a bit? Contour followed and smooth? Any faint printing underneath the date?
dju

Lugerdoc · 09-21-2011, 10:18 AM

Due to the lack of full military inspection markings on the right receiver, I believe that this was built up from left over unused WW1 parts (perhaps by Mauser, if that's an E/63 inspecion stamp that I see) in 1933 as a military special contract for either the KI or KL depending on which theory you want to accept. TH

Solothurn · 09-21-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Is there any sign that the surface beneath the date has been taken down a bit? Contour followed and smooth? Any faint printing underneath the date?
dju

It does not look to have been ground down. The contour looks correct. No sign of printing underneath the date.

Does that support the built from left-over parts in 1933 theory?

DavidJayUden · 09-21-2011, 01:00 PM

The LugerDoc has forgotten more on this subject than I will ever know. I defer to his judgement/experience.
dju

Don M · 09-21-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solothurn

It does not look to have been ground down. The contour looks correct. No sign of printing underneath the date.

The tangent sight notch looks very shallow and narrow as it would if material had been taken off the top of the chamber.

MFC · 09-22-2011, 12:12 AM

Also the scallops that should be on each side of the receiver have been ground down.

Lugerdoc · 09-23-2011, 12:08 PM

I have also seen some of these that are reworks of WW1 military issued pistols, so that may also be the case with this one, although it is not fully military inspected, as one would expect. TH

Jan C Still · 09-23-2011, 09:42 PM

The KI./1933 Lugers are described in word and picture on pages 207-208, and 247 -248 of Weimar Lugers (1993). They are crude reworks assembled from various parts and can be found with DWM, ERFURT, or SIMSON & CO / SUHL middle toggle links (page 247). While there are several theories as to their origon, their use is yet to be established.
Jan

John Sabato · 09-26-2011, 09:54 AM

Thanks so much for your input Jan... we are blessed to have you pop in on us on occasions like this post.

Jan C Still · 09-26-2011, 01:18 PM

John
Happy to participate.
Jan

alanint · 09-26-2011, 01:51 PM

Thanks, gents. I've learned a lot since my first post

09-13-2011, 10:14 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Looks like there is a C/U proof on the Right of the receiver. Can't make out the other one(s)... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-13-2011, 11:12 PM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Solothurn, Welcome to the forum. All Erfurt lugers are military. I think this may possibly be an all matching Erfurt that has had the date scrubbed and the Ki/1933 added. The Ki supposedly stands for Kadette Institute. There is a DWM with the same stamp on the James Julia auction site. The desciption states that the stamp was recently added. http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_....asp?pageREQ=1 (Lot #1122) __________________ Mike C.

09-18-2011, 09:45 PM	#7
Solothurn New User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1933 Erfurt- More Pics .. Attached Thumbnails

09-18-2011, 11:02 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	The KI 1933 has received a lot of comments over the years, and you find many Erfurts with this marking. What the KI stands for is unknown, many people feel it means Kadeten Institute (sp) or was for concentration camps. The concentration camp has pretty much been discarded, the other is in discussion. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-22-2011, 12:12 AM	#15
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Also the scallops that should be on each side of the receiver have been ground down. Attached Images __________________ Mike C.

09-13-2011, 12:08 PM	#1
Solothurn New User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alabama Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1933 Erfurt Can you give me any details on this Luger. It is a recent inheritance that was most likely a WWII bring-back. There are eagle and castle proofs that I don't know the proper designations for. It appears to be all matching numbers. What condition would this be considered? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Solothurn; 09-21-2011 at 12:08 PM.

09-13-2011, 03:19 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Welcome to the forum! Although your gun's numbers all seem to be the same, your gun is a mismatch, as Erfurt produced no Lugers after 1918. A clear photo of the front of your frame would help considerably, as this would tell us if the frame is Erfurt. The area just above the trigger guard seems very odd in profile and may have been ground down or otherwise modified. Please also photograph the proofs on the pistol's right side just behind the barrel. The "K I" above the chamber date is interesting and members with knowledge of this marking will, I'm sure, comment on this. Your holster looks like a Police model, which has been modified back into a military configuration, which may give a clue as to the pistol's origin. Photos of all the markings on the holster would also help in supplying you with more information.

09-14-2011, 07:19 AM	#5
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	As I mentioned to you in a private message, the book 'Weimar Lugers' has a description of this luger with possible explainations of its use and origin. As to your questions on condition, just good condition for a well used luger. David

09-14-2011, 10:28 AM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	As a matter of general interest, the holster was never a Police holster. It started life as an Artillery and was converted, post war, to P08 military configuration. The original thread holes for the cleaning rod sheath are clearly visible in the photo. Regards, Norm

09-19-2011, 12:07 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Is there any sign that the surface beneath the date has been taken down a bit? Contour followed and smooth? Any faint printing underneath the date? dju

09-21-2011, 10:18 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Due to the lack of full military inspection markings on the right receiver, I believe that this was built up from left over unused WW1 parts (perhaps by Mauser, if that's an E/63 inspecion stamp that I see) in 1933 as a military special contract for either the KI or KL depending on which theory you want to accept. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-21-2011, 01:00 PM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The LugerDoc has forgotten more on this subject than I will ever know. I defer to his judgement/experience. dju

09-23-2011, 12:08 PM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I have also seen some of these that are reworks of WW1 military issued pistols, so that may also be the case with this one, although it is not fully military inspected, as one would expect. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-23-2011, 09:42 PM	#17
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	The KI./1933 Lugers are described in word and picture on pages 207-208, and 247 -248 of Weimar Lugers (1993). They are crude reworks assembled from various parts and can be found with DWM, ERFURT, or SIMSON & CO / SUHL middle toggle links (page 247). While there are several theories as to their origon, their use is yet to be established. Jan Last edited by Jan C Still; 09-26-2011 at 01:20 PM.

09-26-2011, 09:54 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks so much for your input Jan... we are blessed to have you pop in on us on occasions like this post. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-26-2011, 01:18 PM	#19
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	John Happy to participate. Jan

09-26-2011, 01:51 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Thanks, gents. I've learned a lot since my first post