1911 DWM I.D. & history help please

bobkap · 04-27-2010, 07:16 AM

S/N: 5686e on frame under barrel. Suffix deciphered thanks to Ed Tinker's markings post, would never have guessed the character under the s/n was an "e". Have scoured this site and other sources but still can't find a match.
Markings:script DWM on toggle top. 1911 on barrel top. Frame r/s, (l>r) Script "E" maybe w/ crown on top. "D" maybe w/ crown on top. Eagle maybe w/ crown on top, wings and legs vertical, not angled. Lanyard boss on rear. Took bunch of pics but they're too crappy to post even if I knew how. Can anyone fill me in on anything about this piece? I consider it's condition to be very good even though it has 1" long minor pitting on l/s of barrel front. Toggle does not hold open. "86" stamped various other places. 8,84 stamped near S/N. Action is very crisp.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
bobkap

Norme · 04-27-2010, 08:21 AM

Hi Bob, You have what sounds like a 1911 DWM military Luger, the standard sidearm of the Imperial German army. In 1911 these guns were manufactured without a hold-open, although many were retrofitted during 1914. For opinions about condition we need to see pictures. Regards, Norm

Piet · 04-27-2010, 02:40 PM

Anything like this?
Piet

klaus 3338 · 04-28-2010, 01:58 AM

Hi Piet,
There was a first contract (order) about delivery of 50000 P08 between the German Government and the private gun maker (supplier) DWM. The contract was fulfilled end march 1911. Your P08 was one of the last of this contract or one of the first of the second contract.
If it came with a matched magazine you will see that it still has the large numbers but also the "e" suffix and the spare magazine got a point behind the numbers. That changed with about 9xxx e. At latest with the "f" suffix the small numbers were used and the spare magazine got a +.
The first acceptance mark left from the power proof stamp on the receiver is showing the small crowned "E" in the large crowned "E". We see/find that only on first issue Lugers.
Perhaps there is a unit mark on the grip panel.
Regards Klaus

Ron Wood · 04-28-2010, 09:07 AM

Good eye Klaus. Piet's Luger is the first I have seen with the small letter/large letter overstamp that was not a first issue. I will have to look closer at other guns.

bobkap · 04-28-2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piet

Anything like this?
Piet

Piet,
Thanks for your reply.
The left and right symbols are identical, but the center is different; looks like a backward"E" with "U" attached and vertical line down the center of the "U", crown on top.. Took some fairly good pics so now I must figure out how to put them up.
Rgds,
bobkap

alanint · 04-28-2010, 10:58 AM

Klaus,

Look into the first posts by Piet for the facinating, unique history of this particular 1911 Luger...

klaus 3338 · 04-28-2010, 11:34 AM

If it has not the hold open added it should be a Luger of the Bavarian or Württemberg army.
Alanint, my English is so poor that I sometimes do not understand all or I oversee something.

wlyon · 04-28-2010, 02:31 PM

Klaus
Regardless of what language you know or don't know, you do an excellent job in sharing your vast knowledge with us. Thank you. Bill

alanint · 04-28-2010, 03:11 PM

Klaus,
You did not miss anything. When Piet joined the forum some time ago, he posted about this particular Luger and its history. I was merely inviting you to look back into the first posts Piet made to the forum, (you can do so by clicking on Piet's name and look into the posts made months ago). The family history of this particular Luger is very interesting..

George Anderson · 04-28-2010, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

If it has not the hold open added it should be a Luger of the Bavarian or Württemberg army.
Alanint, my English is so poor that I sometimes do not understand all or I oversee something.

Klaus, es ist ein Deutscher-Sudwest Afrikaner Landespolizei Pistole.

Norme · 04-28-2010, 03:32 PM

Hi Klaus, There is some confusion on this thread. There are two different guns being discussed. There is Bob's 1911 #5686e, and Piet's gun which is pictured. Regards, Norm

klaus 3338 · 04-29-2010, 09:05 AM

Bill, thanks for your kind words!
Alanint and George, I remember the L.P. Luger with mint holster, box of cartridges and the very interesting story.
Norme, that helps me to understand my own problems with the Lugers we talk about- thanks!
Piet are you living in South Africa or Namibia? I have some family in both countries and hope to be there in late spring next year. Great nature there- Norway and South Africa/ Namibia are my favorites.
Regards Klaus

Piet · 05-03-2010, 03:04 PM

Bob,
Sorry--- I thought I would help with a photo because you said you have problems with it and it sounded by the description like the one I have. Did not want to steal your thunder! It will help if you could take a photo of the mark that you describe - the guys on the forum will tell you quickly what you want to know. Try a little chalk on the mark - it shows well on a photo and can be removed with a soft brush.
Klaus thanks for the additional info - I live in South Africa.
Piet

04-27-2010, 07:16 AM	#1
bobkap New User Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1911 DWM I.D. & history help please S/N: 5686e on frame under barrel. Suffix deciphered thanks to Ed Tinker's markings post, would never have guessed the character under the s/n was an "e". Have scoured this site and other sources but still can't find a match. Markings:script DWM on toggle top. 1911 on barrel top. Frame r/s, (l>r) Script "E" maybe w/ crown on top. "D" maybe w/ crown on top. Eagle maybe w/ crown on top, wings and legs vertical, not angled. Lanyard boss on rear. Took bunch of pics but they're too crappy to post even if I knew how. Can anyone fill me in on anything about this piece? I consider it's condition to be very good even though it has 1" long minor pitting on l/s of barrel front. Toggle does not hold open. "86" stamped various other places. 8,84 stamped near S/N. Action is very crisp. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. bobkap

04-27-2010, 02:40 PM	#3
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Anything like this? Piet Attached Thumbnails

04-28-2010, 02:31 PM	#9
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	Klaus Regardless of what language you know or don't know, you do an excellent job in sharing your vast knowledge with us. Thank you. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

04-27-2010, 08:21 AM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Bob, You have what sounds like a 1911 DWM military Luger, the standard sidearm of the Imperial German army. In 1911 these guns were manufactured without a hold-open, although many were retrofitted during 1914. For opinions about condition we need to see pictures. Regards, Norm

04-28-2010, 01:58 AM	#4
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Piet, There was a first contract (order) about delivery of 50000 P08 between the German Government and the private gun maker (supplier) DWM. The contract was fulfilled end march 1911. Your P08 was one of the last of this contract or one of the first of the second contract. If it came with a matched magazine you will see that it still has the large numbers but also the "e" suffix and the spare magazine got a point behind the numbers. That changed with about 9xxx e. At latest with the "f" suffix the small numbers were used and the spare magazine got a +. The first acceptance mark left from the power proof stamp on the receiver is showing the small crowned "E" in the large crowned "E". We see/find that only on first issue Lugers. Perhaps there is a unit mark on the grip panel. Regards Klaus

04-28-2010, 09:07 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Good eye Klaus. Piet's Luger is the first I have seen with the small letter/large letter overstamp that was not a first issue. I will have to look closer at other guns. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2010, 10:58 AM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Klaus, Look into the first posts by Piet for the facinating, unique history of this particular 1911 Luger...

04-28-2010, 11:34 AM	#8
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	If it has not the hold open added it should be a Luger of the Bavarian or Württemberg army. Alanint, my English is so poor that I sometimes do not understand all or I oversee something.

04-28-2010, 03:11 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Klaus, You did not miss anything. When Piet joined the forum some time ago, he posted about this particular Luger and its history. I was merely inviting you to look back into the first posts Piet made to the forum, (you can do so by clicking on Piet's name and look into the posts made months ago). The family history of this particular Luger is very interesting..

04-28-2010, 03:32 PM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Klaus, There is some confusion on this thread. There are two different guns being discussed. There is Bob's 1911 #5686e, and Piet's gun which is pictured. Regards, Norm

04-29-2010, 09:05 AM	#13
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 417 Times in 162 Posts	Bill, thanks for your kind words! Alanint and George, I remember the L.P. Luger with mint holster, box of cartridges and the very interesting story. Norme, that helps me to understand my own problems with the Lugers we talk about- thanks! Piet are you living in South Africa or Namibia? I have some family in both countries and hope to be there in late spring next year. Great nature there- Norway and South Africa/ Namibia are my favorites. Regards Klaus

05-03-2010, 03:04 PM	#14
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Bob, Sorry--- I thought I would help with a photo because you said you have problems with it and it sounded by the description like the one I have. Did not want to steal your thunder! It will help if you could take a photo of the mark that you describe - the guys on the forum will tell you quickly what you want to know. Try a little chalk on the mark - it shows well on a photo and can be removed with a soft brush. Klaus thanks for the additional info - I live in South Africa. Piet