SIG P210 9mm Barrel/spring needed

[PhilOhio]

Fellow Luger collectors, I need some help, probably possible only from outside the U.S.

In this country, there is virtually no parts or service support for the wonderful SIG P210 pistols. I have recently acquired one, in .30 Luger caliber (aka 7.65 mm Parabellum).

I would like to acquire the 9 mm Parabellum barrel and captive recoil spring assemblies. One party in the U.S. has been trying to sell one for about 1/3 the cost of my entire pistol, purchased in mint condition. He has had no luck finding a buyer so foolish or wealthy, nor am I.

Since the P210 is still widely owned and used in Europe and the Scandinavian countries, it seems to me that parts must be available over there. And I believe it is still a standard service arm in either Sweden or Denmark. Is this correct?

Can anybody help me acquire a 9 mm SIG P210 barrel and recoil spring assembly? ...and possibly an adjustable rear sight?

I believe Vlim said he had heard that new barrels may be available soon in Europe.

SIG-Sauer, in the U.S., told me they offer no parts help at all and only possibly some service help, if you ask them nicely. The manufacturer, different from SIG-Sauer, seems to have no interest in supporting its product in the U.S., which seems strange to me, since the pistol is a virtual icon of quality.

This unavailability of parts appears not to be accidental, but largely "rigged" intentionally by...well...you can guess. Just this week, I learned that the European manufacturer has a formal non-competition contract with LPA of Italy, which makes a wide range of top quality, low cost adjustable sights for popular handguns. So the sight can only be purchased through SIG parts channels. A virtually identical LPA rear sight, for most other pistols, costs just over US$40 here, and I have bought several. But for the SIG P210, the LPA sight can only be purchased outside the U.S., through SIG distribution channels, and it costs over $400, or about ten times the average U.S. retail price for virtually the same thing, with a slightly different male dovetail.

Anyway, I would appreciate any member's thoughts or suggestions on this...including the sight. I would hate to modify my SIG rear sight dovetail for other fine and inexpensive rear sights readily available for a reasonable price. SIG quality is wonderful, but my opinion is that fair business practices should also enter into marketing plans.

Any help would be appreciated.

[SIGP2101]

For your information P210 parts are not inexpensive in Europe too. For example check this German store for pricing. You can order parts from them directly. http://www.pistolenspezialist.de

By the way LPA sight for SIG is the same sight as in USA. Slide has to be machined to accommodate it.
Recently I noticed new sight on the market that doesn’t require slide machining. Actually two possibilities exist, one expensive 3 position sight, and one affordable brand new design for P210. Like this one here:

http://www.pkammermann.ch/index.php?cPath=19_35

or this one on page 11

http://www.wysswaffen.ch/Dokumente/E...odukte2009.pdf

And there is always original option like here:

http://www.gunfactory.ch/faustfw/sigp210_sights.htm

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

For your information P210 parts are not inexpensive in Europe too. For example check this German store for pricing. You can order parts from them directly...

...???...Linky???

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by postino

...???...Linky???

Oooops sorry, I will post Linky on Tuesday, when I get back to work.

[PhilOhio]

SIGP2101,

Thanks very much for your response. I look forward to seeing the link, and I'm still looking for the barrel and spring.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

SIGP2101,

Thanks very much for your response. I look forward to seeing the link, and I'm still looking for the barrel and spring.

I updated my original post with the links. Good luck.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

Fellow Luger collectors, I need some help, probably possible only from outside the U.S.

In this country, there is virtually no parts or service support for the wonderful SIG P210 pistols. I have recently acquired one, in .30 Luger caliber (aka 7.65 mm Parabellum).

I would like to acquire the 9 mm Parabellum barrel and captive recoil spring assemblies. One party in the U.S. has been trying to sell one for about 1/3 the cost of my entire pistol, purchased in mint condition. He has had no luck finding a buyer so foolish or wealthy, nor am I.

Please refer your seller to me. I am foolish enough to pay the market rate for SIG P210 parts.

Since the P210 is still widely owned and used in Europe and the Scandinavian countries, it seems to me that parts must be available over there. And I believe it is still a standard service arm in either Sweden or Denmark. Is this correct?

Can anybody help me acquire a 9 mm SIG P210 barrel and recoil spring assembly? ...and possibly an adjustable rear sight?

I believe Vlim said he had heard that new barrels may be available soon in Europe.

The key words are "may be".

SIG-Sauer, in the U.S., told me they offer no parts help at all and only possibly some service help, if you ask them nicely. The manufacturer, different from SIG-Sauer, seems to have no interest in supporting its product in the U.S., which seems strange to me, since the pistol is a virtual icon of quality.

This unavailability of parts appears not to be accidental, but largely "rigged" intentionally by...well...you can guess. Just this week, I learned that the European manufacturer has a formal non-competition contract with LPA of Italy, which makes a wide range of top quality, low cost adjustable sights for popular handguns. So the sight can only be purchased through SIG parts channels. A virtually identical LPA rear sight, for most other pistols, costs just over US$40 here, and I have bought several. But for the SIG P210, the LPA sight can only be purchased outside the U.S., through SIG distribution channels, and it costs over $400, or about ten times the average U.S. retail price for virtually the same thing, with a slightly different male dovetail.

Anyway, I would appreciate any member's thoughts or suggestions on this...including the sight. I would hate to modify my SIG rear sight dovetail for other fine and inexpensive rear sights readily available for a reasonable price. SIG quality is wonderful, but my opinion is that fair business practices should also enter into marketing plans.

Any help would be appreciated.

Avoid LPA sights for the SIG P210. The factory parts are correctly priced in line with their quality. Please refer to my account of the available sighting options.

[PhilOhio]

Michael,

You say: "Avoid LPA sights for the SIG P210. The factory parts are correctly priced in line with their quality. Please refer to my account of the available sighting options."

FYI, I am reliably informed that the LPA sights are sold as SIG sights, so I agree with you on their quality. I am quite familiar with LPA sights, and own some. LPA has a non-competition contract with SIG, which resells the LPA sight for approximately 800% of what the normal retail U.S. price would be, for a similar pistol. I assume that the LPA variant has a male dovetail to fit the female cut on a P210 slide. Or perhaps the slide cut is widened. And I am not aware of whether a new front sight must be installed to match.

So LPA has the correct sight, but is not contractually permitted to market it in the U.S....or anyplace else, I imagine.

General P210 parts (un)availability also appears to be fiddled in the U.S. The gun is still widely used competitively in Europe, where prices for pistols and parts are reliably reported to be much lower than here. American owners have known this for some time. Manipulation is evident. Granted, SIG quality is outstanding, but U.S. prices are absurd. We need a one-man importer to cater to our small owner market. Might be fun.

It appears that the European SIG company owners prefer that this situation does not change, and that European parts distribution is tightly controlled to exclude resale on the U.S. market; or else they would change it. It is difficult to understand the motivation, but product liability insurance costs might be a factor, given such a small market.

The P210 is a wonderful pistol, but not quite as wonderful as U.S. prices.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

FYI, I am reliably informed that the LPA sights are sold as SIG sights, so I agree with you on their quality.

You are misinformed. While LPA sights meant for the SIG P210 are sold in Europe, they were never installed by the factory.

General P210 parts (un)availability also appears to be fiddled in the U.S. The gun is still widely used competitively in Europe, where prices for pistols and parts are reliably reported to be much lower than here. American owners have known this for some time. Manipulation is evident. Granted, SIG quality is outstanding, but U.S. prices are absurd. We need a one-man importer to cater to our small owner market. Might be fun.

More misinformation. Most of the parts for the SIG P210 are no longer in production. Select European dealers are offering limited new old stock.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

For your information P210 parts are not inexpensive in Europe too. For example check this German store for pricing. You can order parts from them directly. http://www.pistolenspezialist.de

Harald Berty has been refusing to ship parts to the U.S. Swiss Arms stocks centerfire magazines, Hi-Grips, and a full complement of sights and accessories therefor. Additionally, Wyss has trigger springs, 120mm barrels in 9mm Para, and aftermarket micrometer rear sights made by Swiss gunsmith Stefan Dobler and recently approved for use in the Swiss service pistol competitions, whereas Lagardere has 120mm barrels in 7.65 Para and 9x21 IMI, 150mm barrel assemblies in 9 Para, factory pattern walnut stocks, and magazines for .22 l.r. conversion kits. As you say, these parts are expensive, and will be made more so by the costs of import and export licenses, shipping, and duty. A summary of my importing experience, linked to relevant online resources, is posted here.

[PhilOhio]

SIGP2101,

Thanks much for the updated link info, which I am checking.

Michael,

Thanks also for all the European parts availability info, some of which I will pursue. Yes, parts are expensive over there also, but nowhere close to the prices being asked here.

If these guns are being used in significant numbers by civilians, police, and some military forces overseas, the parts are out there and available; even if they are out of production. Only intentional efforts on the part of somebody can prevent or manipulate this. Nor is it completely cost prohibitive to produce functional reproduction parts of acceptable quality, unless somebody is making a conscious effort to block or impede it; this is not rocket science, and plenty of parts are being made for all sorts of obsolete handguns manufactured in relatively small numbers. There is nothing particularly unique or unusual about the SIG P-210, except that they were made of good metal, to tight tolerances, and with generally excellent Swiss quality control. Other than that, they are just ordinary short recoil pistols made on a simplified Browning design, updated by Petter.

On the question of LPA sights for the P210 being marketed abroad, I am confident that I am not misinformed. My direct source is in a position to know...positively.

[SIGP2101]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

A virtually identical LPA rear sight, for most other pistols, costs just over US$40 here, and I have bought several. But for the SIG P210, the LPA sight can only be purchased outside the U.S., through SIG distribution channels, and it costs over $400, or about ten times the average U.S. retail price for virtually the same thing, with a slightly different male dovetail.

I would buy that sight, and remachine dovetail to fit. I assume dovetail is 5.4-5 mm wide and angle must be 60-65 digress. Any competent gunsmith would tel. Do not touch that slide!

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

On the question of LPA sights for the P210 being marketed abroad, ...

Can you provide the link, I am curious? Thanks

[Michael Zeleny]

LPA sights claimed to fit the SIG P210 are indeed marketed abroad, as witness their periodic appearance on Egun.de. Likewise, ProMag magazines claimed to fit the SIG P210 are marketed stateside. Evaluate these claims accordingly.

A few years back I was able to buy new old stock 120mm P210 barrels online for around $200 apiece, or $350 for the 150mm barrel assembly. Today, fair prices for the same parts are upwards of $800 and $1,300, respectively. While retail prices are lower in Europe, the costs of importing a single part regulated by European law and ATF import division alike are prohibitive.

Here is the latest barrel I am bringing in, won in the latest auction by Hermann Historica:

Los Nr.1786 SIG Mod. 210-6 mit Wechsellauf, im Karton, Kal. 9 mm Para, Nr. P79608. Nummerngleich. Spiegelblanker Lauf, Länge 120 mm. Mikrovisier. Sportkorn. Hinten verschraubtes Sportschloss. Vollständige originale Brünierung. Schwarze Kunststoffgriffschalen. Brüniertes Magazin. Fabrikneu. Im Originalkarton mit Wechsellauf im Kal. 9 mm Para ohne Nummer, Beschuss 1977, zwei kompletten Schließfedern, Magazinfüller, Ersatzmagazin, einem Paar neuen Nussholzgriffschalen, Bedienungsanleitung und Anschussscheibe von 1978. Erwerbsscheinpflichtig. Zustand: I. Limit: 1100 EURO -- bought at 1900 EURO + 21%.

This lot comprises a boxed and fully papered, new old stock, Swiss and German proofed SIG P210-6 SN P79608 with a heavy frame, milled trigger, and micrometer sights, from the series exemplified in Doebeli, at p. 82, accompanied by a new old stock unnumbered, Swiss and German proofed 120mm barrel in 9mm Para, two new recoil springs, a spare magazine, and old style, grooved walnut stocks. Fischer's latest lot 741, SN P76538 was comparable at 2,720 Euros, whereas Lot 742, SN P79675 at 2,560 Euros, came from the same series. Add 400 Euros for the barrel and 60 Euros each for the stocks and the extra magazine, and you top out at the final price of 3,240 Euros. With Hermann's buyer premium running at 21%, this comes to about 2,680 Euros in the hammer price. So I was ready to bid 2,400 Euros. I think I did well, buying the gun below the going market rate and getting the spare parts thrown in for free. Its very limited production run and its contemporaneous likes are considered to be the best ever.

This barrel is going into cold storage in my safe. In the normal course of events, I do not expect either to install it in a gun, or to sell it on the open market. The only way it might leave my custody in my lifetime would be via a very friendly trade to a fellow collector. Most of the remaining new old spare part stock is subject to similar conditions. For example, while unnumbered spare slides are known to exist at the army depot level, my Swiss friend has been unable to procure one for his collection, ranked among the most comprehensive worldwide. Draw your own conclusions.

As an aside, Hermann Historica is one of the few German sellers willing and able to export to the U.S. It took me many years to find an export agent for purchases made elsewhere in Germany. I am not sharing this find with anyone else, except as a major personal favor.

[suum cuique]

Phil,
I guess it is not very complicated to find general spare parts for a SIG 210 in Germany, but in order to get a barrel it is required by German law to have a German permit for this gun or to have a gun dealer licence. It is not possible in Germany to buy a barrel w/o a permit like in the US.
Here you can see a sketch of a SIG 210.
http://www.asamnet.de/~ehrenred/ersatzt/sig210.htm
I learned CDS does not deliver to the US, but at least you can check for the correct German designation of the parts and it will give you an idea how much it costs.

[Michael Zeleny]

The correct English, French, and German designations of SIG P210 parts can be found here, accompanied by my notes on their fit, function, and variations.

All inbound foreign gun parts shipments containing rifled barrels and/or valued at over $100.00 are subject to import licensing by the BATF. In my experience, these regulations are enforced vigorously but fairly. Violate them not only at your own risk, but to the common detriment of your fellow enthusiasts. All in all, a new old stock SIG P210 barrel offered "for about 1/3 the cost of [your] entire pistol, purchased in mint condition", is not a bad deal.

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

This unavailability of parts appears not to be accidental, but largely "rigged" intentionally by...well...you can guess. Just this week, I learned that the European manufacturer has a formal non-competition contract with LPA of Italy, which makes a wide range of top quality, low cost adjustable sights for popular handguns. So the sight can only be purchased through SIG parts channels. A virtually identical LPA rear sight, for most other pistols, costs just over US$40 here, and I have bought several. But for the SIG P210, the LPA sight can only be purchased outside the U.S., through SIG distribution channels, and it costs over $400, or about ten times the average U.S. retail price for virtually the same thing, with a slightly different male dovetail.

To spell out the information contained in the price lists linked above, the foregoing account has no basis in fact. LPA sights for the SIG P210 are neither limited to the European "SIG parts channels", nor priced anywhere near $400. In fact, Swiss Arms and their authorized dealers in Switzerland offer the factory micrometer sight, of quality far superior to that of the LPA unit, and guaranteed to fit the slide dovetail, for 380 CHf, or around $375 according to the current exchange rate, whereas the asking price for the LPA sight in Germany is 128 Euros or around $191.

[SIGP2101]

Michael, do you know factory specs for the dovetail dimensions?

[Michael Zeleny]

I have no detailed specifications for the dovetail dimensions, except for their slight taper from the left to the right. The rear sight is a very tight interference fit, and I wouldn't trust anything but OEM pieces to go there.

[swelfelo]

I believe that that Larry at Larry's Guns in Maine can obtain Sig 210 parts, and, in particular, barrels. Be warned that this not inexpensive and I paid $1,000+ for the privilege of getting a new 9mm barrel for Sig 210-5 about seven years ago.

Roco firearms may also have the ability to get parts.

Good luck,

Swelfelo

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by swelfelo

I believe that that Larry at Larry's Guns in Maine can obtain Sig 210 parts, and, in particular, barrels. Be warned that this not inexpensive and I paid $1,000+ for the privilege of getting a new 9mm barrel for Sig 210-5 about seven years ago.

Roco firearms may also have the ability to get parts.

There is no trick to obtaining SIG P210 parts, if the buyer is willing to pay the going rate. Aftermarket 120mm barrels cost around 700 CHf in Switzetland or 400 Euros in Germany. All said and done, this would come in stateside at a little under $1,000, or about 1/3 the cost of the OP's entire pistol, purchased in mint condition. Getting one for significantly less would depend on luck and favors.