SS Luger at Collectors Firearms
 

Hi,
Just trying to educate myself on a new subject. Since I couldn't tell this particular Luger from pretty much any other one, and the hefty price tag, can anyone point out what makes this real or fake? I've searched here and around the net, but nothing definitive. I have learned(I think) that there is no proof the SS marked their weapons in such a manner, and most floating around out there are fake.

Thanks!
Chad

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=38416

with all the incorrect spelling of words in the description, i wonder if they have any ability to know what they have....much less the markings on the piece........

You'd think they would take the time to spellcheck....LOL.

QUOTE: There is no proof the SS marked their weapons in such a manner, and most floating around out there are fake. UNQUOTE

I agree, then the so called Death's Head Totenkopf is pretty rarely found, moreover if I'm not wrong German Imperial units adopted the Deathhead as their symbol, that is why we see it in several German units.

Sergio

I find it sad and surprising that a dealer [Simpsons] is presenting this as if it were authentic, and at such an inflated price. :(

I've dealt with Simpsons [bought my 1900AE from them] and have been of the opinion that they were one of the 'good ones'...

When I called Simpsons, Floyd Gray took my call, pulled the 1900AE out of "the vault", and called out every descriptive detail he could think of as he examined it. No other dealership has done this for me.

While I understand that Simpsons wants to make money on their sales, a disclaimer would surely be in order for this Luger. I would be hard pressed to recommend Simpsons in the future.

To my knowledge the only SS / RHSA firearms that have distinctive markings are the Walther PPK pistols that appear in a known serial number range, and that have serial numbers on their magazines as well as the muzzle area.

Marc

That's a funny ad! The pumpkin head looks like he has steam coming off the top of his head..It's all rediculous BS. Why is this the only Luger known to all mankind marked like this? Cause some BUBBA marked it. Idiotic.

Thanks for all the info! I'm glad there's such a resource as this forum to help!

Simpsons has taken some giant steps backward the last couple years. This is a large step. Bill

I agree with Bill, a very large step. A pumpkin head with steam rising, now that's funny.

Jeffrey

They also list this one:

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=38369

Real or fake?

At least this gun has the faint POSSIBILITY of being real. ;)
Its a WW1 luger and the marking is in the usual area. As this august forum has pondered,this marking might be for the flamethower units in WW1 or some Freikorps unit.:confused:
I notice it is on hold already!
Bob

This is the marking in question

Hi,

Authentic marking? If so, one would think that we would have seen one like it before.

The subject Totenkopf itself resembles the one the SS used on their caps. The two little markings above it look to me like the double Siegrun Hitler adopted from the ancient German Runic alphabet. This is the symbol for victory.

Just some thoughts.


Sieger

That's the second posted/linked Totenkopf. This is the one ChadC questioned. [pic below]

There is the 'K under' version which is SS/RHSA which is identified by the fact that the markings are 'K under"

K under - is where the serial number is on the slide and the 'K' is under the numbers instead of behind the numbers.

There is also the version that has the serial number stamped on the slide. These occur below approx serial no. 335xxx.

Before 335xxx (approx) Walther did not put the serial number on the outside of the slide on PPKs. After 335xxx approx, Walther put the serial number on the outside of the slide on all PPKs, but the SS/RSHA ones had the 'K' under the serial number.

After the 'K under' version, then one has to look for the numbered mag to determine if it is a SS/RSHA version.

why does it say "Collectors Firearms' in the title - you realize that is another company

if you see a mistake, call them and tell them

however, from what i understand, if it is consigned then they will put the buyers description in it.

This 'variation' is still listed in several books.

Call Bob or Brad and talk to them, after they get back from Louisville...

Yes, but have you ever seen it on the side of the barrel and again on the side of the barrel extension?

The second one, with the sizzling pumpkin on the chamber, might be kosher [so to speak]... :D

I have to side with Jerry on this one...No one knows steamy pumpkins like he does... ;)

Totally bogus markings. There is no reason for them to exist on the gun at all. Why would they reproof a gun that was already proof marked?

Even funnier is that the real SS pistols are already in many collections and collectors cannot identify them as such, because they have no additional markings to identify them ;)

How long before psychometry readings become a sales tool?

Page 232 and 233 of "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon discusses Death's Head Rework.

One of the comments on page 232 is "The death's head is thought by most collectors to be the insignia of the SS wing of the early (1930-33) Nazi party"(fair use excerpt).

On page 43 of the same work, a "Death Head" proof mark appears, stating that the mark is found on "a few early Nazi era reworks (1930-1933 period)", (also a fair use excerpt). The proof marked in the Kenyon book appears to be the same proof that appears on the two pistols on the Simpson website.

This would seem to indicate there is at least a variance of opinion concerning the existence and use of this marking. I do note that a couple of posters including Ed have suggested there is at least a possibility that the markings are authentic.

My opinion of Simpson's has not dropped, given the reference I read. I consider the matter unsettled. Should any of those opining on the matter in this thread wish to quote authoritative support for their views that the markings on the two pistols at Simpsons are bogus, and should be known by Simpson's to be bogus, that would be interesting.

I have also found Simpson's to be careful and to retrieve the pistol from inventory and discuss it in detail when a caller inquires. I therefore second Ed's suggestion that those who feel the proof is bogus discuss their concerns direct with the retailer before publicly castigating them.

Datig, Jones, and Sturgess & Gortz also discuss the Totenkopf Lugers. I am one of the few who believe there are 'real' Totenkopf Lugers, and that they were borne by the Freikorps.

The issue here is not whether they are 'real' or fakes but that there is no way to prove their authenticity or even their origins. IMHO, any seller should make an effort [the 'disclaimer'] to let the buyer know that. To definitively state that it is an 'SS' Luger is misleading.

It's not my job to police the Internet. I'll do my complaining with my wallet.

Thanks for the discussion. I have learned a lot reading replies.

Thanks, I appreciate the references and will look for the issue in those works as I acquire them, it is a very interesting marking and worthy of study.

Several posters have declared without qualification that it is impossible for the markings to be real, so I am puzzled by your comment.
Applies to any marking I would think. That these markings seem to be exceptionally rare is more the issue. Personally, I don't want to read a site cluttered with disclaimers. IMO it is incumbent on Simpsons to accurately disclose what they have. Until evidence is presented that they have not fulfilled that duty, I must conclude that they have, given their reputation and my own dealings with them.

I don't know enough about the issue to differ with your most recent statement that Simpson's should have included disclaimer language. While more disclosure is generally better, it would seem that many Lugers on their site might potentially have faked markings. Where does one draw the line it what their disclosure should be regarding the possibility of fakery?

Absent other evidence, I will assume that Simpsons carefully examined the markings and found no evidence of fakery. Given the premium pricing of the pistols being discussed IMO it is incumbent on the buyer to conduct whatever investigation they feel they need.

Lest the thread become too serious, here is a Luger that we can all agree on in terms of authenticity.

Do not be deceived by your eyes, which may suggest this is a defaced 1920 commercial.30 Luger firearm. No - this is the very rare "Panzer Luger", offered as as "GI bring-back" on Gunbroker. This thing has actually been for sale for weeks.

;):crying:

Are you serious about buying an SS Luger??? If so, there is a guy in Prior Lake MN that has an actual verified SS Luger previously owned by Ralph Shattuck and comes with a Letter Of Authentication signed by Ralph. It's too expensive for me. He & Ralph were close friends and business associates. There was a pic of the Luger and the letter posted here some time back...

Anyway, you can't go wrong with that one. :)

No I am not serious about buying an SS Luger or any other rare variation, I'm having too much fun with garden-variety DWM and Mauser military models. I just find the comments of experienced collectors very interesting.

SS/Death's Head Lugers seem like Bigfoot - some say no such thing, others hold varying different views. I have no real opinion on the matter, but enjoy hearing from those who do. However if I suddenly decided to become an SS Luger Collector - assuming the "Panzer Luger" is no longer available - I will hunt down the Luger you mention!!;)

The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head.

Also P under SN. And slide numbered with no Suffix

Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus.

I love the precision inletting that was performed on the grips to place the skull & crossbones!:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


Looks like it was done with a BAYONET! :D

There is never any effort spared in ruining a nice collectable!

That "Panzer Luger" is comedy gold. People crack me up. I'm a complete novice and it looks fake to me.

The shmuck might as well have sharpied "tOTtally bADDasS PANZER looger -Adolph Hitler" on it.

"Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus."

I agree

The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head.

I agree, a skull doesn't mean that the gun belonged to the SS at all!

the precision inletting that was performed on the grips to place the skull & crossbones!
Looks like it was done with a BAYONET!

I agree as well.

Sergio

From what little I know about Simpson's I think they are a reputable company and I believe Brad Simpson may also be a member of this forum. To give him the benefit of the doubt I would like to think that he has not fully examined this Luger and will make the appropriate changes in the discription and price once he becomes aware of it's shortcomings.
Lon

Now on HOLD! As P. T. Barnum once said...

I think It's sad Simpson wouldn't have a problem selling such an obvious fake!

Bob

On the off-topic discussion of Simpson's descriptions of controversial Lugers, I came across this thread today while looking for something totally different...It concerns a Spandau Luger being sold [back then] by Simpson's...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=15331

Again, my dealings with Simpson's has been positive. I bought my 1900AE from Floyd at Simpsons, and made several offers on a C96 Mauser barrel/extension that Simpson's offered as being 'bent'. I would buy from them again. :thumbup:

I was not aware of the rule or law [whatever] that a consigned item retain the consignor's description. Disclaimers or notes about the item from the consignment house are discouraged??? :confused: Adding to or editing consignor's description is not allowed??? Legal issues maybe???

Very confusing... :soapbox: