SHOOTING PROBLEMS

montana cowboy · 06-21-2003, 11:18 PM

HI I'M NEW AND I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT MY PISTOL. ITS A LUGER 1918 MISMATCH NUMBERS, WITH A 8 INCH SHILEN BARREL, NOVAK REAR CUSTOM FRONT SIGHT. I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER, AFTER A FEW ROUNDS, THE KNUCLE ACTION WILL NOT FEED RELIABLE, THE GUN SHOOTS VERY ACCURATE , I'M WONDERING IF ITS THE AMOUNT OF POWDER OR THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLETS WHICH NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. ANY ANSWER WOULD BE APPRECIATED. THANKS FRANK MT

Edward Tinker · 06-22-2003, 12:40 PM

Hello Frank, it seems that if your first couple of rounds feeds ok, that something else must be the problem. Have you tried using different rounds, powder, etc.?

This sounds like an interesting gun, I wouldn't mind seeing some pictures of it.

Welcome to the forum, I moved your topic here under reloading, as Parts Wanted, it might not be seen. Also, by using ALL CAPS, it is considered YELLING to computer people and other members from New York and back East told me they can hear you just fine,

{{that is a joke...}}

What is a Shilen Barrel? Is it a bull barrel?

Ed

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-22-2003, 05:50 PM

Shilen is a barrel maker in Ennis, Texas. He is, or his company is considered one of the finest barrel makers in the world...

Take a look at:

http://www.shilen.com/

Odd that you have not come across their name before...

Edward Tinker · 06-22-2003, 06:20 PM

Not too odd, I have "never" made a gun from a barreled action. I have built a M1 Carbine and 1911A1, but they were from GI parts I bought or was given to me from my grandfather.

Maybe if I lived in Texas they would be familiar to me, but I was raised in Washington state and haven't had the opportunity to hear of them,

thanks,

Ed

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-22-2003, 11:10 PM

Texas is just his most recent location. I believe he started out in New York. The company is known for benchrest competition. They even made complete rifles which have a devoted following, looking for the rifles, or just the actions. One of the very first issues of Guns & Ammo I ever bought, early 70's, had a Shilen rifle on the cover called the DGA. They sold for less than $300. Today I spotted one, in not too good shape, with a $2400 sticker...

Edward Tinker · 06-22-2003, 11:21 PM

Johnny, isn't that how it goes, I have sold and traded this or that and then years later you see it is worth a lot or at least more than you had paid!

Thanks for the info,

Ed

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-23-2003, 07:47 PM

Always, and my wife can't understand why I have trouble throwing things away. Maybe, just maybe...

Thor · 06-23-2003, 09:45 PM

Frank, is the Luger jamming when it is trying to feed the next round? Is it a feed jam (round not being stripped from the magazine)? or does is simply not close AFTER the fresh round is in the chamber? A Feed jam is usually because the magazine spring is too weak, sometimes the first rounds in the mag will feed fine, then the last ones will appear tipped and not going into the chamber. If it is not closing, that is usually a weak main spring. Many long barrel Lugers have had their main spring WEAKENED intentionally so they will eject modern ammo which is typically a little lightly loaded. In the longer barrel models the additional mass of the barrel must be overcome to get the breech far enough back to eject the empty and pick up the next round. If this doesnt happen, typically the shooter will go to a little hotter round or clip the main spring. I favor the former and not the latter. Let us know what kind of failures you are having so we can help you! Thanks!

montana cowboy · 06-24-2003, 08:30 PM

Thor Thanks for answering , I think you might have figured out my problem. The breech, definetly does not come back far enough to insert the next cartridge, I will try a hotter load and if that doesn't work, I will work on the main spring. Do you think heavier bullets will help or maybe a Mag primer ? Thanks Frank Mt

Thor · 06-24-2003, 09:03 PM

To see if the load is hot enough, load one round and fire, does it lock the action open? If it does 5 times in a row, the ammo is hot enough for the main spring you have in it. If it is not closing, THEN you need a stronger main spring AND stronger ammo. But stay with factory loadings.

Try some Remington Golden Saber +p+, which propels a 124 gr bullet at 1250 fps. FIRST put in a Wolff #36 main spring (gunsprings.com) only around $10. While you are at it, if the mag spring is not really hard to depress, change that too! I would always try another magazine if feeding is a problem. I dont really recommend the +p+ with standard 4" barrels, but with an 8" it sure seems to help. Also check to see how far away the empties are being thrown, it they just dribble out, the load needs a little more power. This seems to be a problem with some 8" Barrel Lugers.

montana cowboy · 06-27-2003, 08:35 PM

Thor I went to the gun range yesterday, and shot some hot loads with 115 and 124 grain
bullets. Shooting the 115 gr , the breech would not move at all, the emptys stayed in the chamber, shooting the 124, I got two shots off and the third one jammed everytime. My mag springs are so hard that I can't load more than 4 rounds at the time. I'm reloading 147 grain bullets and will try those, I also ordered a spring set for the gun and 3 spring for my mags.
I hope this helps, if not I will write again. Thanks Frank Mt

Thor · 06-27-2003, 08:56 PM

Try the 124 gr +p+ Golden Saber Remingtons, your problem will dissappear

Sieger · 08-17-2003, 04:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by montana cowboy:
HI I'M NEW AND I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT MY PISTOL. ITS A LUGER 1918 MISMATCH NUMBERS, WITH A 8 INCH SHILEN BARREL, NOVAK REAR CUSTOM FRONT SIGHT. I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER, AFTER A FEW ROUNDS, THE KNUCLE ACTION WILL NOT FEED RELIABLE, THE GUN SHOOTS VERY ACCURATE , I'M WONDERING IF ITS THE AMOUNT OF POWDER OR THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLETS WHICH NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. ANY ANSWER WOULD BE APPRECIATED. THANKS FRANK MT<hr /></blockquote>For jamming problems, the OAL of the cartridges is a good thing to check first. For round nose ball, the OAL should be 1.175. The step feed Luger magazine demands very close tolerances, or jams will occur, regularly!

My opinion, don't try to make a .357 mag out of your pistol. If it was hand made and barreled, a lot of thoughtful consideration probably went into it. Try calling the gunsmith that made it. He may just have your answer.

Bob

unspellable · 08-18-2003, 08:10 AM

"I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER,..."

Try putting the bullet in front of the powder.

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

Saturn6 · 08-18-2003, 07:57 PM

Gentelmen: I have used 3 Shilen barrels, all on
Mauser rifles. Yes as far as I am concerned Shilen
makes a quality product, the worst accuracy I have
gotten is a .850" 5 shot groupe@ 100 Yds. in Cal.
8X57 M.M. The best .250"@100 Yds. in 22-250.

Reguards...John (saturn6)

06-21-2003, 11:18 PM	#1
montana cowboy New User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	SHOOTING PROBLEMS HI I'M NEW AND I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT MY PISTOL. ITS A LUGER 1918 MISMATCH NUMBERS, WITH A 8 INCH SHILEN BARREL, NOVAK REAR CUSTOM FRONT SIGHT. I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER, AFTER A FEW ROUNDS, THE KNUCLE ACTION WILL NOT FEED RELIABLE, THE GUN SHOOTS VERY ACCURATE , I'M WONDERING IF ITS THE AMOUNT OF POWDER OR THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLETS WHICH NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. ANY ANSWER WOULD BE APPRECIATED. THANKS FRANK MT

06-22-2003, 12:40 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Hello Frank, it seems that if your first couple of rounds feeds ok, that something else must be the problem. Have you tried using different rounds, powder, etc.? This sounds like an interesting gun, I wouldn't mind seeing some pictures of it. Welcome to the forum, I moved your topic here under reloading, as Parts Wanted, it might not be seen. Also, by using ALL CAPS, it is considered YELLING to computer people and other members from New York and back East told me they can hear you just fine, {{that is a joke...}} What is a Shilen Barrel? Is it a bull barrel? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-22-2003, 06:20 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Not too odd, I have "never" made a gun from a barreled action. I have built a M1 Carbine and 1911A1, but they were from GI parts I bought or was given to me from my grandfather. Maybe if I lived in Texas they would be familiar to me, but I was raised in Washington state and haven't had the opportunity to hear of them, thanks, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-22-2003, 11:10 PM	#5
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Texas is just his most recent location. I believe he started out in New York. The company is known for benchrest competition. They even made complete rifles which have a devoted following, looking for the rifles, or just the actions. One of the very first issues of Guns & Ammo I ever bought, early 70's, had a Shilen rifle on the cover called the DGA. They sold for less than $300. Today I spotted one, in not too good shape, with a $2400 sticker... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-22-2003, 11:21 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Johnny, isn't that how it goes, I have sold and traded this or that and then years later you see it is worth a lot or at least more than you had paid! Thanks for the info, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-22-2003, 05:50 PM	#3
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Shilen is a barrel maker in Ennis, Texas. He is, or his company is considered one of the finest barrel makers in the world... Take a look at: http://www.shilen.com/ Odd that you have not come across their name before... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-23-2003, 07:47 PM	#7
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Always, and my wife can't understand why I have trouble throwing things away. Maybe, just maybe... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-23-2003, 09:45 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Frank, is the Luger jamming when it is trying to feed the next round? Is it a feed jam (round not being stripped from the magazine)? or does is simply not close AFTER the fresh round is in the chamber? A Feed jam is usually because the magazine spring is too weak, sometimes the first rounds in the mag will feed fine, then the last ones will appear tipped and not going into the chamber. If it is not closing, that is usually a weak main spring. Many long barrel Lugers have had their main spring WEAKENED intentionally so they will eject modern ammo which is typically a little lightly loaded. In the longer barrel models the additional mass of the barrel must be overcome to get the breech far enough back to eject the empty and pick up the next round. If this doesnt happen, typically the shooter will go to a little hotter round or clip the main spring. I favor the former and not the latter. Let us know what kind of failures you are having so we can help you! Thanks! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-24-2003, 08:30 PM	#9
montana cowboy New User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thor Thanks for answering , I think you might have figured out my problem. The breech, definetly does not come back far enough to insert the next cartridge, I will try a hotter load and if that doesn't work, I will work on the main spring. Do you think heavier bullets will help or maybe a Mag primer ? Thanks Frank Mt

06-24-2003, 09:03 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	To see if the load is hot enough, load one round and fire, does it lock the action open? If it does 5 times in a row, the ammo is hot enough for the main spring you have in it. If it is not closing, THEN you need a stronger main spring AND stronger ammo. But stay with factory loadings. Try some Remington Golden Saber +p+, which propels a 124 gr bullet at 1250 fps. FIRST put in a Wolff #36 main spring (gunsprings.com) only around $10. While you are at it, if the mag spring is not really hard to depress, change that too! I would always try another magazine if feeding is a problem. I dont really recommend the +p+ with standard 4" barrels, but with an 8" it sure seems to help. Also check to see how far away the empties are being thrown, it they just dribble out, the load needs a little more power. This seems to be a problem with some 8" Barrel Lugers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-27-2003, 08:35 PM	#11
montana cowboy New User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thor I went to the gun range yesterday, and shot some hot loads with 115 and 124 grain bullets. Shooting the 115 gr , the breech would not move at all, the emptys stayed in the chamber, shooting the 124, I got two shots off and the third one jammed everytime. My mag springs are so hard that I can't load more than 4 rounds at the time. I'm reloading 147 grain bullets and will try those, I also ordered a spring set for the gun and 3 spring for my mags. I hope this helps, if not I will write again. Thanks Frank Mt

06-27-2003, 08:56 PM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Try the 124 gr +p+ Golden Saber Remingtons, your problem will dissappear __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-17-2003, 04:45 PM	#13
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by montana cowboy: <strong>HI I'M NEW AND I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT MY PISTOL. ITS A LUGER 1918 MISMATCH NUMBERS, WITH A 8 INCH SHILEN BARREL, NOVAK REAR CUSTOM FRONT SIGHT. I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER, AFTER A FEW ROUNDS, THE KNUCLE ACTION WILL NOT FEED RELIABLE, THE GUN SHOOTS VERY ACCURATE , I'M WONDERING IF ITS THE AMOUNT OF POWDER OR THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLETS WHICH NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. ANY ANSWER WOULD BE APPRECIATED. THANKS FRANK MT</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">For jamming problems, the OAL of the cartridges is a good thing to check first. For round nose ball, the OAL should be 1.175. The step feed Luger magazine demands very close tolerances, or jams will occur, regularly! My opinion, don't try to make a .357 mag out of your pistol. If it was hand made and barreled, a lot of thoughtful consideration probably went into it. Try calling the gunsmith that made it. He may just have your answer. Bob

08-18-2003, 08:10 AM	#14
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	"I AM USING A 9 MM 124 XTP BEHIND 5.8 OF UNIQUE POWDER,..." Try putting the bullet in front of the powder. (Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

08-18-2003, 07:57 PM	#15
Saturn6 User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: California Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentelmen: I have used 3 Shilen barrels, all on Mauser rifles. Yes as far as I am concerned Shilen makes a quality product, the worst accuracy I have gotten is a .850" 5 shot groupe@ 100 Yds. in Cal. 8X57 M.M. The best .250"@100 Yds. in 22-250. Reguards...John (saturn6)