A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud)

05-10-2001, 01:10 PM

Recently an Artillery Luger was offered on AuctionArms. And I was the high bidder. I do not have an Artillery and this one was listed as excellent and the seller seemed knowledgeable about the gun, and gave accurate information and responses. The problem is that there is no gun.

The seller, a fellow from Chattanooga Tenn, listed the gun as a one day auction, requested 3 day payment. And promptly disabled his email (an aol account). I sent a check and FFL off and waited, and waited... Finally, another buyer contacted me with his suspicions concerning a seller by a different user name, I did some checking and yeap I

had been had.

The procedure seems to be as follows, the fellow gets an AOL account, lists himself on auction arms with a new,

nonsense, alphanumerically name. Lists something too good to be true, (Lugers, colt 1911, M-1 Springfield's,

barettas, walthers) with accurate descriptions of collectable guns (barrel length, markings, etc), in excellent shape, at a very low starting price,

requests money order or certified check, sometimes lists 15-20 in shipping, often ends the description with many

exclamation marks. 5 day inspection and money back... There is never a picture of the gun. The auctions are one to two day things... And, there is no feed back on the seller...

This fellow is making about $10,000 a month doing this and the Chattanooga Police dept., well it sounds like they just

don't have time..... The FBI, well he's too small.... The ATF, (you will just love this one) well if he hasn't any guns then its not our problem... so he walks, and I'm out...

Fair warning to you folks...

Frank Rial

John D. · 05-10-2001, 01:51 PM

You should also contact the USPS, as what this guy is doing is commiting a felony and fraud (they take Mail Fraud especially seriously if it is over $500). Since your payment/FFL was sent via USPS - then those Inspectors DO prosecute. As well - when those USPS inspectors get riled up - the FBI suddenly appears to take an active interest. When the FBI gets involved - I'll bet the local PD starts getting excited as well...

Give that a try...

In the meantime, keep us posted on how this turns out. In the very least - the Auction Site should contact the seller with threats of litigation and notifying the authorities....

05-10-2001, 04:19 PM

I think AuctionArms IS taking action. I just received an email from them stateing they would no longer accept "free" listings. The reason given was due to fraud such as FGR experienced. They said they couldn't contact the seller because they (the seller) would close out their email account. They are going to require a credit card from everyone listing and after the 1st of June will charge a percentage of the sale for ALL sales.

Somebody's always trying to take advantage of honest people

John D. · 05-10-2001, 06:20 PM

Yes - I have the same generic "notice" from AuctionArms - which I think is a great improvement over their current business practices.

However, my point is that their "notice" should be sent specifically to the seller about FGR's specific "transaction" - and that "seller" (who was registered on their site - AND FGR has his snail mail address!) should be given "notice of intent to pursue litigation" - for EXACTLY the same reasons they cited in the e-mail to you and me. A less ambitious approach would be for AuctionArms to support FGR's position should he wish to pursue litigation.

An unresponsible approach is for AuctionArms to do nothing - IMHO. Further, their "general" notice that they sent is an admission that they had a problem - and to do nothing to resolve specific claims now is actionable within the bounds of litigation, especially as they had foreknowledge that a buyer could be victimized through a transaction on their site.

JimP · 05-10-2001, 06:27 PM

I am sorry to hear of your loss in an auction. I have also been ripped off; but fortunatly it was only a $15.00 sling. By all means, contact the postal inspectors, since this is probably mail fraud and they will prosecute. A suggestion for the future: if possible, pay with US Postal Money Orders. They are often cheaper than cashier's checks ($0.75 for a $700.00 MO). If the seller fails to deliver and cashes in the MO, it is definatly mail fraud and probably in the felony range.

05-10-2001, 06:55 PM

In addition to contacting the various agencies suggested, also give thought to complaining to a caseworker in your Congressman's local office; followed by correspondence to the Congressman, cc-ing all of the somnolent agencies. Each agency will be queried by the Congressman and, at the very least, will have to reply by form letter why they took no action. Who knows, someone might even look into the matter. I'm a retired Federal prosecutor and we always paid very close attention to "Congressional enquiries"; even if it was to explain "no action". Finally, you will have the satisfacrtion of knowing that, regardless, you woke-up someone.

Dok · 05-10-2001, 08:01 PM

I've never felt comfortable with dealing with an unknown person on this sort of thing... I like to see and touch what I'm buying. And now, after your story it's a pretty safe bet that I will NEVER EVER purchase this way. Thanks for confirming my worst fears. At least you've saved me some heartache.

BILL · 05-10-2001, 08:11 PM

There are dealers here in the Lugerforum who are honest, have really neat stuff (or know where it is) that you can trust. One more time, try to buy from our own guys. I hate to hear about 'auction fraud' but keep in mind that it can be prevented. I have purchased some really nice things from our own guys here and never have I been disappointed.

Hugh · 05-10-2001, 08:31 PM

Several years ago I was ripped off for $500 through an ad in a magazine. Since I had sent a personal check through the mail, I contacted the post office, but recieved no help. I was informed that if payment had been made by post office money order, they would have become involved.

Matt · 05-10-2001, 09:06 PM

I saw that same post on Auction Arms and wondered why the auction only lasted a day. I didn't bid on it for that reason.

Russ · 05-10-2001, 09:17 PM

i agree with bill!!!! try and buy from peaple you at least see on the diferent sights allot. not from fly by nights.

that is my opinion

russ

G.T. · 05-10-2001, 09:49 PM

Hi Frank! You have fallen into a nasty trap....I have been there too! It is terrible the way dishonest people scam us every day....I see it alot in the Phoenix area, and it makes me sick, I feel bad that you have suffered a loss at the hands of one of these Rat Bastards, Hope they catch him!....Good Luck in the future...Till...later...G.T.

Rick K · 05-10-2001, 10:45 PM

Frank, I admire the courage and comraderie you showed in alerting all of us to the trap you fell into. I think that took lots of guts! I have bought three Lugers in my short history of "collecting"; one through Gunbrokers.com, one through Auctionarms, and one through Gunamerica. You have made me see how lucky I have been to have not been ripped off. Thank you for the heads up!

05-11-2001, 01:36 AM

But it would have been cowardliness to not share the tale. There are too many good people, and new people, on this forum, who could fall prey to this kind of thing. The advice offered by many is sound, know who you are dealing with, but even burned, I council you to nurture trust also, for the fraternity of collectors contains many more worthy individuals than the other kind. And one of the great joys I have found in collecting is the sharing of information and ideas among people who will likely never meet...

I intend to pursue this matter, and the suggestions are helpful, one emailer suggested contacting the IRS.... but the things being as they are, I hold little hope for more than stopping him, for a time... the changes in Auction Arms will help, but a new more sophisticated scam artist will appear...

My advice is simple, ask for references and refuse the deal if they are suspicious... Banks, police depts, local business, and the like are good places to start...

I didn't...

Thanks again. Frank

dave_j · 05-11-2001, 09:47 AM

I saw is auction also and was tempted to bid. I'm glad I didn't. Sorry to here about your loss. At least you have helped us to be more careful with auctions. However, auctions do open up a lot of opportunities that otherwise would not exist. For example, I just purchased a nice broomhandle mauser shooter from a guy in CA. Since I'm from GA, without auctions I would have never known about it.

Matt · 05-11-2001, 05:55 PM

Frank,

I sure hate to hear of anyone being scammed. I've bought several guns from Auction Arms and Guns America and had the same fear.

I've always sent a bank cashiers check because it saves me from having to wait in line at the post office.

From now on, I'll get a postal money order unless it is someone I have done business with before or know they are a reputable dealer.

On the positive side, I have found that the prices on Auction Arms and Guns America are often less than the overpriced items seen at gun shows.

Matt

Rick K · 05-11-2001, 05:57 PM

I live in Georgia too. Why don't you email me. Maybe we're close enough to get together and compare Lugers sometime.

Ted · 05-11-2001, 06:06 PM

Dont forget Wombat in Atlanta? Maybe you can see his reworked shooter about the time I start on yours! Ted

Rick K · 05-11-2001, 06:19 PM

I'm about two hours from Atlanta. Maybe we could get together and compare Lugers sometime!

David Jackson · 05-12-2001, 01:28 AM

I too, as are all the other respondents to this thread, am sorry you had this terrible experience with a thief. Whoever this person is obviously belongs in jail.

However, I have bought and sold lots and lots of stuff via the mail; both in the old "Shotgun News" days and since the internet became so important. I have been "burned" before but mostly by inaccurate descriptions; most recently by an ebay seller of magazines for another brand of gun. I used Pay Pal to purchase these things and they have a complaint department but as one might expect; no good came of it. I got stung for about $50 in the end. This person claimed he put photos up when he did not and there is no way to absolutely prove he did not ... and so it goes ... Bad as he is this person is not a patch on the one you dealt with.

Get photos guys; if it is a big purchase get a telephone number. Check feedback on whichever site it is you are using.

Most people are pretty honest; there are some crooks it is true; but don't get carried away and refuse all business. Be selective, check the people and so on and you should be OK.

05-10-2001, 01:10 PM	#1
FGR Guest Posts: n/a	A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) Recently an Artillery Luger was offered on AuctionArms. And I was the high bidder. I do not have an Artillery and this one was listed as excellent and the seller seemed knowledgeable about the gun, and gave accurate information and responses. The problem is that there is no gun. The seller, a fellow from Chattanooga Tenn, listed the gun as a one day auction, requested 3 day payment. And promptly disabled his email (an aol account). I sent a check and FFL off and waited, and waited... Finally, another buyer contacted me with his suspicions concerning a seller by a different user name, I did some checking and yeap I had been had. The procedure seems to be as follows, the fellow gets an AOL account, lists himself on auction arms with a new, nonsense, alphanumerically name. Lists something too good to be true, (Lugers, colt 1911, M-1 Springfield's, barettas, walthers) with accurate descriptions of collectable guns (barrel length, markings, etc), in excellent shape, at a very low starting price, requests money order or certified check, sometimes lists 15-20 in shipping, often ends the description with many exclamation marks. 5 day inspection and money back... There is never a picture of the gun. The auctions are one to two day things... And, there is no feed back on the seller... This fellow is making about $10,000 a month doing this and the Chattanooga Police dept., well it sounds like they just don't have time..... The FBI, well he's too small.... The ATF, (you will just love this one) well if he hasn't any guns then its not our problem... so he walks, and I'm out... Fair warning to you folks... Frank Rial

05-10-2001, 01:51 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	FGR.... You should also contact the USPS, as what this guy is doing is commiting a felony and fraud (they take Mail Fraud especially seriously if it is over $500). Since your payment/FFL was sent via USPS - then those Inspectors DO prosecute. As well - when those USPS inspectors get riled up - the FBI suddenly appears to take an active interest. When the FBI gets involved - I'll bet the local PD starts getting excited as well... Give that a try... In the meantime, keep us posted on how this turns out. In the very least - the Auction Site should contact the seller with threats of litigation and notifying the authorities....

05-10-2001, 04:19 PM	#3
Robert E. Lipps Guest Posts: n/a	Re: FGR.... I think AuctionArms IS taking action. I just received an email from them stateing they would no longer accept "free" listings. The reason given was due to fraud such as FGR experienced. They said they couldn't contact the seller because they (the seller) would close out their email account. They are going to require a credit card from everyone listing and after the 1st of June will charge a percentage of the sale for ALL sales. Somebody's always trying to take advantage of honest people

05-10-2001, 06:20 PM	#4
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi Robert... Yes - I have the same generic "notice" from AuctionArms - which I think is a great improvement over their current business practices. However, my point is that their "notice" should be sent specifically to the seller about FGR's specific "transaction" - and that "seller" (who was registered on their site - AND FGR has his snail mail address!) should be given "notice of intent to pursue litigation" - for EXACTLY the same reasons they cited in the e-mail to you and me. A less ambitious approach would be for AuctionArms to support FGR's position should he wish to pursue litigation. An unresponsible approach is for AuctionArms to do nothing - IMHO. Further, their "general" notice that they sent is an admission that they had a problem - and to do nothing to resolve specific claims now is actionable within the bounds of litigation, especially as they had foreknowledge that a buyer could be victimized through a transaction on their site.

05-10-2001, 06:27 PM	#5
JimP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) I am sorry to hear of your loss in an auction. I have also been ripped off; but fortunatly it was only a $15.00 sling. By all means, contact the postal inspectors, since this is probably mail fraud and they will prosecute. A suggestion for the future: if possible, pay with US Postal Money Orders. They are often cheaper than cashier's checks ($0.75 for a $700.00 MO). If the seller fails to deliver and cashes in the MO, it is definatly mail fraud and probably in the felony range.

05-10-2001, 06:55 PM	#6
Ad Guest Posts: n/a	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) In addition to contacting the various agencies suggested, also give thought to complaining to a caseworker in your Congressman's local office; followed by correspondence to the Congressman, cc-ing all of the somnolent agencies. Each agency will be queried by the Congressman and, at the very least, will have to reply by form letter why they took no action. Who knows, someone might even look into the matter. I'm a retired Federal prosecutor and we always paid very close attention to "Congressional enquiries"; even if it was to explain "no action". Finally, you will have the satisfacrtion of knowing that, regardless, you woke-up someone.

05-10-2001, 08:01 PM	#7
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) I've never felt comfortable with dealing with an unknown person on this sort of thing... I like to see and touch what I'm buying. And now, after your story it's a pretty safe bet that I will NEVER EVER purchase this way. Thanks for confirming my worst fears. At least you've saved me some heartache.

05-10-2001, 08:11 PM	#8
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) There are dealers here in the Lugerforum who are honest, have really neat stuff (or know where it is) that you can trust. One more time, try to buy from our own guys. I hate to hear about 'auction fraud' but keep in mind that it can be prevented. I have purchased some really nice things from our own guys here and never have I been disappointed.

05-10-2001, 08:31 PM	#9
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) Several years ago I was ripped off for $500 through an ad in a magazine. Since I had sent a personal check through the mail, I contacted the post office, but recieved no help. I was informed that if payment had been made by post office money order, they would have become involved.

05-10-2001, 09:06 PM	#10
Matt User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 196 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) I saw that same post on Auction Arms and wondered why the auction only lasted a day. I didn't bid on it for that reason.

05-10-2001, 09:17 PM	#11
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) i agree with bill!!!! try and buy from peaple you at least see on the diferent sights allot. not from fly by nights. that is my opinion russ

05-10-2001, 09:49 PM	#12
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) Hi Frank! You have fallen into a nasty trap....I have been there too! It is terrible the way dishonest people scam us every day....I see it alot in the Phoenix area, and it makes me sick, I feel bad that you have suffered a loss at the hands of one of these Rat Bastards, Hope they catch him!....Good Luck in the future...Till...later...G.T.

05-10-2001, 10:45 PM	#13
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Admiration Frank, I admire the courage and comraderie you showed in alerting all of us to the trap you fell into. I think that took lots of guts! I have bought three Lugers in my short history of "collecting"; one through Gunbrokers.com, one through Auctionarms, and one through Gunamerica. You have made me see how lucky I have been to have not been ripped off. Thank you for the heads up!

05-11-2001, 01:36 AM	#14
FGR Guest Posts: n/a	Thank you... But it would have been cowardliness to not share the tale. There are too many good people, and new people, on this forum, who could fall prey to this kind of thing. The advice offered by many is sound, know who you are dealing with, but even burned, I council you to nurture trust also, for the fraternity of collectors contains many more worthy individuals than the other kind. And one of the great joys I have found in collecting is the sharing of information and ideas among people who will likely never meet... I intend to pursue this matter, and the suggestions are helpful, one emailer suggested contacting the IRS.... but the things being as they are, I hold little hope for more than stopping him, for a time... the changes in Auction Arms will help, but a new more sophisticated scam artist will appear... My advice is simple, ask for references and refuse the deal if they are suspicious... Banks, police depts, local business, and the like are good places to start... I didn't... Thanks again. Frank

05-11-2001, 09:47 AM	#15
dave_j User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Admiration I saw is auction also and was tempted to bid. I'm glad I didn't. Sorry to here about your loss. At least you have helped us to be more careful with auctions. However, auctions do open up a lot of opportunities that otherwise would not exist. For example, I just purchased a nice broomhandle mauser shooter from a guy in CA. Since I'm from GA, without auctions I would have never known about it.

05-11-2001, 05:55 PM	#16
Matt User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 196 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Thank you... Frank, I sure hate to hear of anyone being scammed. I've bought several guns from Auction Arms and Guns America and had the same fear. I've always sent a bank cashiers check because it saves me from having to wait in line at the post office. From now on, I'll get a postal money order unless it is someone I have done business with before or know they are a reputable dealer. On the positive side, I have found that the prices on Auction Arms and Guns America are often less than the overpriced items seen at gun shows. Matt

05-11-2001, 05:57 PM	#17
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey Dave... I live in Georgia too. Why don't you email me. Maybe we're close enough to get together and compare Lugers sometime.

05-11-2001, 06:06 PM	#18
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Hey Dave... Dont forget Wombat in Atlanta? Maybe you can see his reworked shooter about the time I start on yours! Ted

05-11-2001, 06:19 PM	#19
Rick K User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Cochran, GA Posts: 305 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ted. Hey Wombat... I'm about two hours from Atlanta. Maybe we could get together and compare Lugers sometime!

05-12-2001, 01:28 AM	#20
David Jackson User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Magalia, California Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: A Fools Tale (Gun Auction Fraud) I too, as are all the other respondents to this thread, am sorry you had this terrible experience with a thief. Whoever this person is obviously belongs in jail. However, I have bought and sold lots and lots of stuff via the mail; both in the old "Shotgun News" days and since the internet became so important. I have been "burned" before but mostly by inaccurate descriptions; most recently by an ebay seller of magazines for another brand of gun. I used Pay Pal to purchase these things and they have a complaint department but as one might expect; no good came of it. I got stung for about $50 in the end. This person claimed he put photos up when he did not and there is no way to absolutely prove he did not ... and so it goes ... Bad as he is this person is not a patch on the one you dealt with. Get photos guys; if it is a big purchase get a telephone number. Check feedback on whichever site it is you are using. Most people are pretty honest; there are some crooks it is true; but don't get carried away and refuse all business. Be selective, check the people and so on and you should be OK.