17th Hussar Rgt. Death Head Sword...[OT]

Brandon · 10-01-2002, 06:07 PM

Hi all,
I thought this might be of interest to a collector with a Luger marked to Hussar Regiment Nr 17 Braunschweig (Jan Still prehaps)!

It might also interest a Death Head Luger owner (Ron Wood prehaps), as it has a Death Head engraved on the blade!

Der Rittmeister

*NOTE* You will have to scroll down untill you see it!

Regards, Brandon

Ron Wood · 10-01-2002, 06:41 PM

Brandon,
That is a beautiful sword! I don't have anything from the 17th Braunschweig Hussar Regiment, but I do have a busby from the 1st Lieb Garde Hussar Regiment.

Brandon · 10-01-2002, 07:19 PM

Ron,
Yes that really is a great sword! I hope it finds a good home!

Your busby is really nice too!!! Wouldn't it be nice to find a uniform to go with it? that would really be something!

You know my main interest used to be Third Reich Lugers, but I'm really starting to get into the Imperial models, and to be honest Ron, You are partially to blame... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] !

As you say: "If it's made after 1918 it's a reproduction"

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> , Brandon

Ron Wood · 10-01-2002, 07:55 PM

You're learning! Stick around, I'll convert you (and others) yet! Imperial rules! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Jan C Still · 10-01-2002, 08:43 PM

Brandon · 10-01-2002, 08:47 PM

Ron,
The damage has already been done! I've concluded that my next Luger will most likely be a 1914 Erfurt W/ 4" bbl. Then I'll probably go after the Artillery variation!

You're a bad BAD man Ron... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Good Hunting, Brandon

Brandon · 10-01-2002, 08:49 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still:
<strong>Brandon
Thanks for the heads up on the 17 Hussar sword.

I already have an identical sword and the 17 Hussar marked luger. I am looking for a 17 Hussar helmet front piece (deaths head).
Jan</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry this find couldn't be of much use! I'll be on the lookout for a helmet emblem though!

Regards, Brandon

Herb · 10-01-2002, 09:10 PM

Jan, have you tried Manion's auction house for your death's head emblem? I have delt with them for at least 15 years and have found them to accurately describe and grade every item, I have never been dissappointed. Their catalogs are expensive but if you need a particular item sooner or later it'll show up. Http://www.manions.com

Jan C Still · 10-01-2002, 11:27 PM

Doubs · 10-02-2002, 01:17 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>You're learning! Stick around, I'll convert you (and others) yet! Imperial rules! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ron, no arm-twisting necessary here! I've preferred the Imperial-era Lugers for many years and, in fact, know little about the later Mausers at all. (When a Mauser Luger is involved, I run to my books for information that I haven't committed to memory.)

While one might argue that the metalurgy of the Mauser Lugers is improved over the Imperial-era Lugers, the workmanship isn't. There is a smoothness to the early Lugers that simply isn't there on the later guns. That, at least, is my opinion. Others, I'm sure, will feel differently.

Ron Wood · 10-02-2002, 01:39 PM

I have always considered from about 1850, maybe a little earlier, to around the beginning of WWI to be the "Golden Age" of gunmaking. The fit, finish, craftsmanship and attention to detail of the weapons made then are rarely equalled and IMHO never surpassed. Mass production marked the gradual demise of high quality. Custom gunmakers are still able to meet the early standards, but it isn't economically feasible for commercial production.

Brandon · 10-02-2002, 02:12 PM

Well Jan,
This isn't a helmet insignia but, you might want to take a look! It's a 17th Hussar regiment goblet and cups! Again the Death Head insignia is present! This grouping was presented to a Leutnant, and has the names of some of his comrades inscribed on the back of the goblet (one of the names inscribed was of an Orden Pour Le Merite winner), would look very nice next to your sword and Luger!!!

At the low price of only $2395.00

Der Rittmeister

*NOTE* Scroll down untill you see it!

Best Regards, Brandon

Heydrich · 10-02-2002, 02:56 PM

I totally agree Ron. Imperial Lugers rule. Besides, I’ve been around the Third Reich collectables much of my adult life, and it gets old after awhile. And the hootin’ and a hollerin’ for the German WW2 collectables has just gotten out of hand in the last few years. You see guys almost having a gasm over the stuff sometimes. I want no part of it anymore.

This is totally off topic, but has anyone besides me ever wondered why the German totenkopf (death’s head) symbolism holds such fascination for so many collectors and guys in general? I can understand a teenager liking it (the image is unspeakably cool), but a grown man? I guess it gets down to trying to come to grips with a basic understanding of male psychology. There is an old saying: “Men worship death, while women worship life.” I come from a German family, and I’ve always been intrigued with all the Germanic images, like the iron cross, crossed swords, the swastika, and the totenkopf. (Although I don’t support or believe in Nazism in any way.) It’s strange, you never see black people, South Americans, or Asian people embracing such symbolism like you do white people. The death’s head is obviously an evil symbol. I can understand why people like Malcolm X openly stated that white people are messed up in the head.

For example, here are some images of cups from the Web site in question:

Brandon · 10-02-2002, 03:42 PM

My interest in the Totenkopf is plainly historical! I also don't view people who have a historical fascination with the Totenkopf as "messed up in the head"...

Now when we are talking about some guy who has portraits of Hitler on his walls, and goes to the supermarket dressed in an Allgemeine-SS uniform... Yeah thats messed up in the head... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> !

Regards,Brandon

Ron Wood · 10-02-2002, 05:35 PM

I posted this on the old forum, perhaps I might be forgiven if I run it up the flagpole again:

The Death Head has long been a symbol of honor in German heraldry. It signified honor unto death, a commitment to lifelong knightly honor, not "death before dishonor" as many have attributed to it. In Imperial Germany, the privilege of wearing the DH was bestowed only to those units that displayed exemplary honor and valor in battle. The First and Second Leib (bodyguard) Hussars (Kaiser WilhelmÃ¢??s personal honor guard), the 17th Brunswick Hussars, and the Brunswick 3rd Battalion 92nd Infantry Regiment were the most notable. As time went on, other units incorporated the DH into their insignia, but without the imperial commission that earlier units had. The use of the DH on early Lugers is an enigma and has been attributed to the three units mentioned above plus "Freikorps" units during the late Weimar era, flamethrower or "Flammenwerfer" units, tank units, sturmbattalions and a few others. It is the flamethrower connection that is currently considered the most favorable theory (see Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" volumes) The lazy S surmounting the skull it thought to be a stylized reprsentation of a flamethrower pattern.

Ron Wood · 10-02-2002, 05:49 PM

Brandon,
You asked, "Wouldn't it be nice to find a uniform to go with it?" Yes it certainly would. Here is a photo of Field Marshal August von Mackensen, who led the 1st Leib Garde Hussars.

The second picture is his jacket or "Attila" that was at auction about a year ago. I think the reserve price was around $20,000. A lot more than I will ever be able to spend. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" />

Brandon · 10-02-2002, 07:49 PM

Ron,
That is a really nice uniform, and a nice price-tag to boot... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Wonder what these guys would think if they knew their clothes were selling for such high prices?

Regards, Brandon

Jan C Still · 10-03-2002, 02:46 PM

Brandon · 10-04-2002, 10:30 AM

Jan,
Glad I could help! If you do decide to order the set, I'd really like to see a picture of the combined 17th Hussar Luger, Sword, and Goblets!!!

Ron, I also tracked down an interesting grouping that belonged to a staff member serving under August Von Mackensen!

The catch is it's already on Hold but, If you would like to see it I'll post the link!

Best Regards,Brandon

Roadkill · 10-04-2002, 12:40 PM

http://www.gunsandammoauctions.com/a...p?Item=5563806

rk

10-01-2002, 06:07 PM	#1
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	17th Hussar Rgt. Death Head Sword...[OT] Hi all, I thought this might be of interest to a collector with a Luger marked to Hussar Regiment Nr 17 Braunschweig (Jan Still prehaps)! It might also interest a Death Head Luger owner (Ron Wood prehaps), as it has a Death Head engraved on the blade! Der Rittmeister NOTE You will have to scroll down untill you see it! Regards, Brandon

10-01-2002, 06:41 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Brandon, That is a beautiful sword! I don't have anything from the 17th Braunschweig Hussar Regiment, but I do have a busby from the 1st Lieb Garde Hussar Regiment. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2002, 07:55 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	You're learning! Stick around, I'll convert you (and others) yet! Imperial rules! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2002, 09:10 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, have you tried Manion's auction house for your death's head emblem? I have delt with them for at least 15 years and have found them to accurately describe and grade every item, I have never been dissappointed. Their catalogs are expensive but if you need a particular item sooner or later it'll show up. Http://www.manions.com __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-02-2002, 01:39 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I have always considered from about 1850, maybe a little earlier, to around the beginning of WWI to be the "Golden Age" of gunmaking. The fit, finish, craftsmanship and attention to detail of the weapons made then are rarely equalled and IMHO never surpassed. Mass production marked the gradual demise of high quality. Custom gunmakers are still able to meet the early standards, but it isn't economically feasible for commercial production. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2002, 07:19 PM	#3
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, Yes that really is a great sword! I hope it finds a good home! Your busby is really nice too!!! Wouldn't it be nice to find a uniform to go with it? that would really be something! You know my main interest used to be Third Reich Lugers, but I'm really starting to get into the Imperial models, and to be honest Ron, You are partially to blame... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] ! As you say: "If it's made after 1918 it's a reproduction" <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> , Brandon

10-01-2002, 08:43 PM	#5
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-01-2002, 08:47 PM	#6
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, The damage has already been done! I've concluded that my next Luger will most likely be a 1914 Erfurt W/ 4" bbl. Then I'll probably go after the Artillery variation! You're a bad BAD man Ron... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Good Hunting, Brandon

10-01-2002, 08:49 PM	#7
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jan C. Still: <strong>Brandon Thanks for the heads up on the 17 Hussar sword. I already have an identical sword and the 17 Hussar marked luger. I am looking for a 17 Hussar helmet front piece (deaths head). Jan</strong><hr></blockquote> Sorry this find couldn't be of much use! I'll be on the lookout for a helmet emblem though! Regards, Brandon

10-01-2002, 11:27 PM	#9
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-02-2002, 01:17 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,620 Times in 528 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>You're learning! Stick around, I'll convert you (and others) yet! Imperial rules! <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Ron, no arm-twisting necessary here! I've preferred the Imperial-era Lugers for many years and, in fact, know little about the later Mausers at all. (When a Mauser Luger is involved, I run to my books for information that I haven't committed to memory.) While one might argue that the metalurgy of the Mauser Lugers is improved over the Imperial-era Lugers, the workmanship isn't. There is a smoothness to the early Lugers that simply isn't there on the later guns. That, at least, is my opinion. Others, I'm sure, will feel differently.

10-02-2002, 02:12 PM	#12
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well Jan, This isn't a helmet insignia but, you might want to take a look! It's a 17th Hussar regiment goblet and cups! Again the Death Head insignia is present! This grouping was presented to a Leutnant, and has the names of some of his comrades inscribed on the back of the goblet (one of the names inscribed was of an Orden Pour Le Merite winner), would look very nice next to your sword and Luger!!! At the low price of only $2395.00 Der Rittmeister NOTE Scroll down untill you see it! Best Regards, Brandon

10-02-2002, 02:56 PM	#13
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I totally agree Ron. Imperial Lugers rule. Besides, I’ve been around the Third Reich collectables much of my adult life, and it gets old after awhile. And the hootin’ and a hollerin’ for the German WW2 collectables has just gotten out of hand in the last few years. You see guys almost having a gasm over the stuff sometimes. I want no part of it anymore. This is totally off topic, but has anyone besides me ever wondered why the German totenkopf (death’s head) symbolism holds such fascination for so many collectors and guys in general? I can understand a teenager liking it (the image is unspeakably cool), but a grown man? I guess it gets down to trying to come to grips with a basic understanding of male psychology. There is an old saying: “Men worship death, while women worship life.” I come from a German family, and I’ve always been intrigued with all the Germanic images, like the iron cross, crossed swords, the swastika, and the totenkopf. (Although I don’t support or believe in Nazism in any way.) It’s strange, you never see black people, South Americans, or Asian people embracing such symbolism like you do white people. The death’s head is obviously an evil symbol. I can understand why people like Malcolm X openly stated that white people are messed up in the head. For example, here are some images of cups from the Web site in question:

10-02-2002, 03:42 PM	#14
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My interest in the Totenkopf is plainly historical! I also don't view people who have a historical fascination with the Totenkopf as "messed up in the head"... Now when we are talking about some guy who has portraits of Hitler on his walls, and goes to the supermarket dressed in an Allgemeine-SS uniform... Yeah thats messed up in the head... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> ! Regards,Brandon

10-02-2002, 05:35 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I posted this on the old forum, perhaps I might be forgiven if I run it up the flagpole again: The Death Head has long been a symbol of honor in German heraldry. It signified honor unto death, a commitment to lifelong knightly honor, not "death before dishonor" as many have attributed to it. In Imperial Germany, the privilege of wearing the DH was bestowed only to those units that displayed exemplary honor and valor in battle. The First and Second Leib (bodyguard) Hussars (Kaiser WilhelmÃ¢??s personal honor guard), the 17th Brunswick Hussars, and the Brunswick 3rd Battalion 92nd Infantry Regiment were the most notable. As time went on, other units incorporated the DH into their insignia, but without the imperial commission that earlier units had. The use of the DH on early Lugers is an enigma and has been attributed to the three units mentioned above plus "Freikorps" units during the late Weimar era, flamethrower or "Flammenwerfer" units, tank units, sturmbattalions and a few others. It is the flamethrower connection that is currently considered the most favorable theory (see Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" volumes) The lazy S surmounting the skull it thought to be a stylized reprsentation of a flamethrower pattern. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2002, 05:49 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Brandon, You asked, "Wouldn't it be nice to find a uniform to go with it?" Yes it certainly would. Here is a photo of Field Marshal August von Mackensen, who led the 1st Leib Garde Hussars. The second picture is his jacket or "Attila" that was at auction about a year ago. I think the reserve price was around $20,000. A lot more than I will ever be able to spend. <img src="graemlins/r.gif" border="0" alt="[king]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-02-2002, 07:49 PM	#17
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, That is a really nice uniform, and a nice price-tag to boot... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> Wonder what these guys would think if they knew their clothes were selling for such high prices? Regards, Brandon

10-03-2002, 02:46 PM	#18
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts

10-04-2002, 10:30 AM	#19
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan, Glad I could help! If you do decide to order the set, I'd really like to see a picture of the combined 17th Hussar Luger, Sword, and Goblets!!! Ron, I also tracked down an interesting grouping that belonged to a staff member serving under August Von Mackensen! The catch is it's already on Hold but, If you would like to see it I'll post the link! Best Regards,Brandon

10-04-2002, 12:40 PM	#20
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	http://www.gunsandammoauctions.com/a...p?Item=5563806 rk