Need Witnesses please

Ron Smith · 10-21-2004, 10:46 PM

And I'm pissed off and alittle paranoid.And posting this purposely for the benefit of anyone who may be interested. Mainly our Federal friends at BATF.

I received this from a dealer in Hawaii today. I bought it through GunBroker. A stripped 1906 Luger frame. With a purposely altered serial #. The 4th number has been peened out very carefully and restamped with a 7.

I am posting this on a public forum, so that there are no repercussions. I received it today by registered mail. And will be returning it to the seller tomorrow. This is an illegal alteration, and I will not have it in my house longer than it takes to get rid of it.

I feel like I've been set-up. Or else this guy is'nt very bright.

Very sincerely, Ron Smith

Ron Smith · 10-21-2004, 11:04 PM

Ed, I'm not saying it is stolen. I'm not making any accusations at all. I'm just not keeping it. If the seller refuses to refund me. I will simply send the copy of his FFL and the frame to the nearest BATF office. I'll be out a few bucks, but so will he.
Ron

Edward Tinker · 10-21-2004, 11:04 PM

hey, i just deleted my posting...

but was trying to be funny,

ed

Ron Smith · 10-21-2004, 11:07 PM

Ed, I know you were. No offense intended, or taken. I'm just pretty ticked. I was really looking forward to using this frame to build a nice shooter.
Ron

Edward Tinker · 10-21-2004, 11:10 PM

yes, and to be surprised is very irritating... Much better if you knew.

You could ask for guidance from the local batf, say you saw it on gunbroker and see what they say.

I don't think there is a way to get it reregistered like a VIN on a car?

Ed

Malcolm P. · 10-21-2004, 11:12 PM

Ron,

Hard to tell from the picture, but was this an obviously recent alteration? Considering we are dealing with a 100 year old gun that has been through a lot of history, the alteration may have occurred well prior to the laws forbidding alteration of the serial number. Anyone know if this calls into question possession of gun with an altered serial number since it may have occurred a VERY long time ago.

Malcolm Pipes

Ron Smith · 10-21-2004, 11:18 PM

Malcolm, Since there is no way of verifying when it was altered. It is still illegal to own. In short it is a violation of federal law.

Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 10-22-2004, 12:29 AM

Ron, Sorry to hear about your most recent find....It's a 5 didget too!Talk about a forced match! Why would some idiot do that? Surely not to hide a serial #. People should know that forensically it is possible for metalurgists to bring up a serial # even though it has been ground off. Jerry Burney

the gunman · 10-22-2004, 03:29 AM

Ron It was peened out to prevent metalurgists from bring up the number. By peening out the number it changes the structure of the metal allowing the number to be unrecovered.This may be why it was done this way.I too would send it back as quick as possible Best Richie

John Sabato · 10-22-2004, 09:30 AM

AFTER you have your money back Ron, I would send the copy of the dealer's license and the photos you posted to your local ATF office... If the sender was a licensed dealer, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER... He was just pawning his problem off on you.

A final alternative, if the guy doesn't refund your money is to seek ATF permission have the gun legitimately "repaired" by TIG welding and then have it re-serialized by the ATF. It would still make a good shooter if they allow you to do that. It sure would be better than a several hundred dollar hole in your checking account.

Ron Smith · 10-22-2004, 10:23 AM

John, I am considering sending it to ATF anyway. I'm not exactly sure what to do at this point. I'm not going to return it until I get confirmation from the seller, that I will get my money back. E-mailed him last night. No response yet.
Thanks, Ron

jamese · 10-22-2004, 11:26 AM

Ron,
Don't send it back yet. I have called a buddy of mine who is with BATF,and I think he may want to talk to you.

Jim

John Sabato · 10-22-2004, 11:44 AM

Enlargement and photo enhancement of the serial number alteration... It may be my imagination, but I think I see either a "3" or a "5" under that "7" overstamp...

Ron Smith · 10-22-2004, 01:17 PM

Jim, I would be happy to talk to him. I would really like to find out if there is anyway that I could legally keep it. Send me a PM if he needs any information. I truly do appreciate your help.

John, I looked at it under the strongest magnification I could. It's so heavily peened, it's hard to tell.

Thanks Guys, Ron

Pete Ebbink · 10-22-2004, 08:22 PM

Ron,

If a return and refund does not work out, you might have some recourse with the GunBroker folks...maybe they could pressure the seller to do the right thing...or threaten him with banishment from that auction...then he would have to go and start-up his own auction web site... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-22-2004, 08:28 PM

Yes, and he would insist that you never ask the reserve price....
Tom A

Ron Smith · 10-22-2004, 10:55 PM

Pete, That may be an option. did'nt think of that. I'm waiting for an ATF agent to contact me. They have the whole story. So I guess I'll wait and see. I am really hoping that I can work out a way to keep the frame. I think I've located some of the parts I'll need for it.
The seller actually came across as being up front, honest,and friendly. I asked him if the frame had been sanded, buffed, or altered in any way. He said absolutely not. I guess the serial number just slipped his mind. "OH! Did'nt I mention that it's illegal as hell?" Oops!!

Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 10-23-2004, 12:45 AM

Ron, Illegal as Hell? Hell is not illegal. It's like Marriage , a tax audit or a root canal. An unpleasant place to be but not illegal.It's actually easy to get into Hell, ten ways. God wrote them on a stone tablet.... The Government won't let you see these in any public building. They allow them on the streets and the internet though...Jerry Burney

unspellable · 10-25-2004, 11:44 AM

If I remember correctly, fire arms made prior to the cut off date of 1934 or there abouts are not required to have any serial number at all. How ever this is a ticklish situation and you want to be d**n sure of where you stand.

I had a similar problem years ago with a Mk VI Webley. The British military had sold a batch off to the Irish Constablery. For reasons known only to the bureaucratic mind they renumbered them by placing a strike out line through the original serial number and adding the new one below it. When the Irish Constabalery sold them off they were imported into the US under the new number.

At the time I lived in Michigan where handguns are registered. The police did quite a double take over the serial number and I had to get a letter from the importer to explain it.

You cannot expect the local police to be up on the fine points of the law on this sort of thing. If it proves to be legal as is, I'd carry the paper work to prove it along with it.

jamese · 10-25-2004, 11:57 AM

unspellable,
you may be correct that firearms after a 1934 are not required to have a ser number, however altering a ser number on just about anything (including firearms), is illegal in every state that I know of, not to mention Federal Law.

Clearly the from the photos one can see the ser number has been altered.

But your right, I would keep any paper work that is generated as a result of this if things turn out favorable.

Jim

10-21-2004, 10:46 PM	#1
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Need Witnesses please And I'm pissed off and alittle paranoid.And posting this purposely for the benefit of anyone who may be interested. Mainly our Federal friends at BATF. I received this from a dealer in Hawaii today. I bought it through GunBroker. A stripped 1906 Luger frame. With a purposely altered serial #. The 4th number has been peened out very carefully and restamped with a 7. I am posting this on a public forum, so that there are no repercussions. I received it today by registered mail. And will be returning it to the seller tomorrow. This is an illegal alteration, and I will not have it in my house longer than it takes to get rid of it. I feel like I've been set-up. Or else this guy is'nt very bright. Very sincerely, Ron Smith __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-21-2004, 11:04 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ed, I'm not saying it is stolen. I'm not making any accusations at all. I'm just not keeping it. If the seller refuses to refund me. I will simply send the copy of his FFL and the frame to the nearest BATF office. I'll be out a few bucks, but so will he. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-21-2004, 11:04 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	hey, i just deleted my posting... but was trying to be funny, ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-21-2004, 11:07 PM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ed, I know you were. No offense intended, or taken. I'm just pretty ticked. I was really looking forward to using this frame to build a nice shooter. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-21-2004, 11:10 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	yes, and to be surprised is very irritating... Much better if you knew. You could ask for guidance from the local batf, say you saw it on gunbroker and see what they say. I don't think there is a way to get it reregistered like a VIN on a car? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-21-2004, 11:12 PM	#6
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, Hard to tell from the picture, but was this an obviously recent alteration? Considering we are dealing with a 100 year old gun that has been through a lot of history, the alteration may have occurred well prior to the laws forbidding alteration of the serial number. Anyone know if this calls into question possession of gun with an altered serial number since it may have occurred a VERY long time ago. Malcolm Pipes

10-21-2004, 11:18 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Malcolm, Since there is no way of verifying when it was altered. It is still illegal to own. In short it is a violation of federal law. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-22-2004, 12:29 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Ron, Sorry to hear about your most recent find....It's a 5 didget too!Talk about a forced match! Why would some idiot do that? Surely not to hide a serial #. People should know that forensically it is possible for metalurgists to bring up a serial # even though it has been ground off. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-22-2004, 03:29 AM	#9
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Ron It was peened out to prevent metalurgists from bring up the number. By peening out the number it changes the structure of the metal allowing the number to be unrecovered.This may be why it was done this way.I too would send it back as quick as possible Best Richie

10-22-2004, 09:30 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	AFTER you have your money back Ron, I would send the copy of the dealer's license and the photos you posted to your local ATF office... If the sender was a licensed dealer, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER... He was just pawning his problem off on you. A final alternative, if the guy doesn't refund your money is to seek ATF permission have the gun legitimately "repaired" by TIG welding and then have it re-serialized by the ATF. It would still make a good shooter if they allow you to do that. It sure would be better than a several hundred dollar hole in your checking account. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2004, 10:23 AM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, I am considering sending it to ATF anyway. I'm not exactly sure what to do at this point. I'm not going to return it until I get confirmation from the seller, that I will get my money back. E-mailed him last night. No response yet. Thanks, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-22-2004, 11:26 AM	#12
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Ron, Don't send it back yet. I have called a buddy of mine who is with BATF,and I think he may want to talk to you. Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

10-22-2004, 11:44 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Enlargement and photo enhancement of the serial number alteration... It may be my imagination, but I think I see either a "3" or a "5" under that "7" overstamp... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2004, 01:17 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jim, I would be happy to talk to him. I would really like to find out if there is anyway that I could legally keep it. Send me a PM if he needs any information. I truly do appreciate your help. John, I looked at it under the strongest magnification I could. It's so heavily peened, it's hard to tell. Thanks Guys, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-22-2004, 08:22 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ron, If a return and refund does not work out, you might have some recourse with the GunBroker folks...maybe they could pressure the seller to do the right thing...or threaten him with banishment from that auction...then he would have to go and start-up his own auction web site... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-22-2004, 08:28 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Yes, and he would insist that you never ask the reserve price.... Tom A

10-22-2004, 10:55 PM	#17
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Pete, That may be an option. did'nt think of that. I'm waiting for an ATF agent to contact me. They have the whole story. So I guess I'll wait and see. I am really hoping that I can work out a way to keep the frame. I think I've located some of the parts I'll need for it. The seller actually came across as being up front, honest,and friendly. I asked him if the frame had been sanded, buffed, or altered in any way. He said absolutely not. I guess the serial number just slipped his mind. "OH! Did'nt I mention that it's illegal as hell?" Oops!! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-23-2004, 12:45 AM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Ron, Illegal as Hell? Hell is not illegal. It's like Marriage , a tax audit or a root canal. An unpleasant place to be but not illegal.It's actually easy to get into Hell, ten ways. God wrote them on a stone tablet.... The Government won't let you see these in any public building. They allow them on the streets and the internet though...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-25-2004, 11:44 AM	#19
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	If I remember correctly, fire arms made prior to the cut off date of 1934 or there abouts are not required to have any serial number at all. How ever this is a ticklish situation and you want to be d**n sure of where you stand. I had a similar problem years ago with a Mk VI Webley. The British military had sold a batch off to the Irish Constablery. For reasons known only to the bureaucratic mind they renumbered them by placing a strike out line through the original serial number and adding the new one below it. When the Irish Constabalery sold them off they were imported into the US under the new number. At the time I lived in Michigan where handguns are registered. The police did quite a double take over the serial number and I had to get a letter from the importer to explain it. You cannot expect the local police to be up on the fine points of the law on this sort of thing. If it proves to be legal as is, I'd carry the paper work to prove it along with it.

10-25-2004, 11:57 AM	#20
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	unspellable, you may be correct that firearms after a 1934 are not required to have a ser number, however altering a ser number on just about anything (including firearms), is illegal in every state that I know of, not to mention Federal Law. Clearly the from the photos one can see the ser number has been altered. But your right, I would keep any paper work that is generated as a result of this if things turn out favorable. Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception