J. M. Browning's Luger Design

saxman · 01-04-2003, 03:10 PM

Overheard at the gun show this morning while I browsed a table of nice Lugers: "You know that Browning designed the Luger, didn't you?" The other guy says: "Yeah, John Browning designed it and sold it to the Germans." Wow. The stuff you can learn at a show!

Ron Wood · 01-04-2003, 04:56 PM

Or not learn, as the case in point. John Browning certainly introduced the world of firearms to the toggle link lock-up, but to credit him with anything to do with the Luger design would be like giving Orville and Wibur credit for designing the 747.

Doubs · 01-04-2003, 06:33 PM

That's genuinely funny...... and scary at the same time. John M. Browning was certainly a genius and the arms he invented are marvelous, but the closest he ever came to the Luger was the grip angle of his Woodsman series. (I don't know if it's 55 degrees or not but it LOOKS similar to the angle of the Luger grip.)

saxman · 01-04-2003, 08:13 PM

It sure set me back - I didn't turn around to see who said it because I didn't want to laugh out loud. The table I was at sure had some nice Lugers and P-38s. "Two Bears", I think. This was a pretty good show - Randy Weaver was there signing his book.

ViggoG · 01-04-2003, 08:20 PM

I hope that I'm not mistaken, [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]
But as I remember;
Mr. Borschardt was once a Browning Employee.
Before taking his Ideas to Europe. [img]confused.gif[/img]
How much influence his connections with J. Browning had on his development of the fore runner of the Luger will probably never be known with certainty. <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" />
Someone please correct me if I'm in error.
ViggoG [img]confused.gif[/img]
>>>
My Humblest Apology, I STAND SELF CORRECTED as follows (copied from the Luger History in the Forum Archives)
>>> [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img]
The Luger's direct ancestor, the Borchardt C/93 self-loading pistol was, one of the very earliest viable semiautomatic pistols available in any quantity. It was designed by Hugo Borchardt while in the employ of Ludwig Loewe & Co, Karlsruhe, Germany. Borchardt was born on the 6th of June, 1844 in Magdeburg, Germany and he died from a lung infection on the 8th of May 1925 in Berlin-Charlottenburg.

Borchardt left Germany for the U.S.A. when he was sixteen years old. His first job was as a production supervisor with the Pioneer Breechloading Arms Company in Trennton, Massachusetts. Later, he was a foreman at the Singer sewing machine factory and also worked for Colt and Winchester. In 1876, he was employed by Sharps in Bridgeport, Connecticut and then left America for Budapest in Hungary, where he worked for an arms manufacturer.

Borchardt developed the C 93 pistol for Ludwig Loewe Cie. in Karlsruhe in 1893. It was based on Hyram MaximÃ?Â´s 1884 machine gun patent and on WinchesterÃ?Â´s toggle action on their lever-action carbine.
[img]redface.gif[/img]
ViggoG <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Roadkill · 01-04-2003, 09:03 PM

Went out a couple of days ago to play with some toys, I tend to take guns I like to shoot and leave the others behind. This time I took only those I hadn't shot since I could remember. Out came a AC44 P38, a Haenel Schmeisser .25, a Japanese type 99, Mod 44 Nagant, and a 1951 Russian Tokarev. I was very pleased with the TT33. Shooting Norinco 7.62x25 at 25 yds I put some very respectable holes in the targets. The action was smooth, the recoil pleasant, the muzzle climb very manageable, and flawless in function, feeding, ect. Mr. Browing didn't make any junk.

rk

Navy · 01-04-2003, 10:39 PM

Hey saxman,

If you were dealing with Two Bears, there is a high probability you were dealing with "the ole' perfesser," Mr Bob Cardinal.

Very glad to know he is still out and about...a real gentleman.

Tom A.

unspellable · 01-05-2003, 11:11 AM

While at Winchester, Borchardt was designing revolvers. They can be seen at the Winchester museum in Cody, Wyoming. For what ever reason, Winchester never put them into production. This may have had something to do with Borchardt leaving Winchester to go to Sharps. His timing was not too good as Sharps went belly up and Borchardt then went to Lowe. The rest is history.

01-04-2003, 03:10 PM	#1
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	J. M. Browning's Luger Design Overheard at the gun show this morning while I browsed a table of nice Lugers: "You know that Browning designed the Luger, didn't you?" The other guy says: "Yeah, John Browning designed it and sold it to the Germans." Wow. The stuff you can learn at a show! __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

01-04-2003, 04:56 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Or not learn, as the case in point. John Browning certainly introduced the world of firearms to the toggle link lock-up, but to credit him with anything to do with the Luger design would be like giving Orville and Wibur credit for designing the 747. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-04-2003, 08:13 PM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It sure set me back - I didn't turn around to see who said it because I didn't want to laugh out loud. The table I was at sure had some nice Lugers and P-38s. "Two Bears", I think. This was a pretty good show - Randy Weaver was there signing his book. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

01-04-2003, 06:33 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,672 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,618 Times in 527 Posts	That's genuinely funny...... and scary at the same time. John M. Browning was certainly a genius and the arms he invented are marvelous, but the closest he ever came to the Luger was the grip angle of his Woodsman series. (I don't know if it's 55 degrees or not but it LOOKS similar to the angle of the Luger grip.)

01-04-2003, 08:20 PM	#5
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I hope that I'm not mistaken, [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] But as I remember; Mr. Borschardt was once a Browning Employee. Before taking his Ideas to Europe. [img]confused.gif[/img] How much influence his connections with J. Browning had on his development of the fore runner of the Luger will probably never be known with certainty. <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> Someone please correct me if I'm in error. ViggoG [img]confused.gif[/img] >>> My Humblest Apology, I STAND SELF CORRECTED as follows (copied from the Luger History in the Forum Archives) >>> [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] The Luger's direct ancestor, the Borchardt C/93 self-loading pistol was, one of the very earliest viable semiautomatic pistols available in any quantity. It was designed by Hugo Borchardt while in the employ of Ludwig Loewe & Co, Karlsruhe, Germany. Borchardt was born on the 6th of June, 1844 in Magdeburg, Germany and he died from a lung infection on the 8th of May 1925 in Berlin-Charlottenburg. Borchardt left Germany for the U.S.A. when he was sixteen years old. His first job was as a production supervisor with the Pioneer Breechloading Arms Company in Trennton, Massachusetts. Later, he was a foreman at the Singer sewing machine factory and also worked for Colt and Winchester. In 1876, he was employed by Sharps in Bridgeport, Connecticut and then left America for Budapest in Hungary, where he worked for an arms manufacturer. Borchardt developed the C 93 pistol for Ludwig Loewe Cie. in Karlsruhe in 1893. It was based on Hyram MaximÃ?Â´s 1884 machine gun patent and on WinchesterÃ?Â´s toggle action on their lever-action carbine. [img]redface.gif[/img] ViggoG <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

01-04-2003, 09:03 PM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Went out a couple of days ago to play with some toys, I tend to take guns I like to shoot and leave the others behind. This time I took only those I hadn't shot since I could remember. Out came a AC44 P38, a Haenel Schmeisser .25, a Japanese type 99, Mod 44 Nagant, and a 1951 Russian Tokarev. I was very pleased with the TT33. Shooting Norinco 7.62x25 at 25 yds I put some very respectable holes in the targets. The action was smooth, the recoil pleasant, the muzzle climb very manageable, and flawless in function, feeding, ect. Mr. Browing didn't make any junk. rk

01-04-2003, 10:39 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hey saxman, If you were dealing with Two Bears, there is a high probability you were dealing with "the ole' perfesser," Mr Bob Cardinal. Very glad to know he is still out and about...a real gentleman. Tom A.

01-05-2003, 11:11 AM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	While at Winchester, Borchardt was designing revolvers. They can be seen at the Winchester museum in Cody, Wyoming. For what ever reason, Winchester never put them into production. This may have had something to do with Borchardt leaving Winchester to go to Sharps. His timing was not too good as Sharps went belly up and Borchardt then went to Lowe. The rest is history.