Luger SN 1216Ku

Beth714 · 08-21-2003, 08:07 AM

I have a Luger P08, 9mm, Serial No. 1216Ku that was captured by my Dad when he was with Co. A 502nd Paratroop Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division, on May 6, 1945, at Reit Im Winkle, Austria, when a Division of German SS surrendered to Co. A.
In 1964, he was told since it had the Ku by the serial number that it was manufactured by Mauser and issued by Krieghoff to the Luftwaffe and considered to be one of the rarer variations. Does anyone have any information in regards to this? Thanks.

Frank · 08-21-2003, 09:44 AM

Beth, welcome to the Luger Forum. If you examine the top of the pistol, there should be a "41" over the chamber and a "byf" on the middle toggle. These Lugers have some controversy associated with them. In Jan Still's book Third Reich Lugers, he devotes a page explaining his research. The accepted story is that the KÃ?? stands for KÃ?Â¼mmerer, which means substandard or miss sized. From this he concludes that these pistols were made by Mauser for the Luftwaffe from leftover parts.

It doesn't mean they were substandard in the final configuration since they must have passed the final inspection. Just some of the parts were not to the original Mauser Specifications. There were roughly 2700 of the byf 41 KÃ?? Lugers produced.

Hope this helps!!

John Sabato · 08-21-2003, 10:01 AM

Welcome to the Lugerforum Beth,

If at all possible, please post photographs of this Luger for the forum to see...

I just recently watched the complete HBO series called Band of Brothers... Salutes to your Dad for making sacrifices so that we might live with our freedoms the way we do today...

drbuster · 08-21-2003, 10:29 AM

At the recent Reno gun show, the 101st Airborne Division, WW2 vet vintage, was having a large reunion on the floor below. It was great talking to these guys. Some were wearing their original uniforms! One was a survivor of the St. Mere Eglise jump. Many wanted to visit the gun show. What a humbling expeience for me (a Vietnam vet doctor).

Beth714 · 08-21-2003, 12:15 PM

I would like to thank all of you for providing me with information. Also, there is a 41 and a byf on the toggle. I still have my Dad's flight jacket. Also, I had the honor of serving with the United States Army and was stationed overseas in Germany--much in the same area my Dad was.

Edward Tinker · 08-21-2003, 02:00 PM

Hello Elizabeth, welcome to the forum, your Dad's unit has a lot of history associated with it, so that is nice to have an heirloom like that!

We would love to see pictures of the Luger? Any other items, bring back papers, holster, pics of old Dad in uniform?

I collect stories, so I am always interested in these fascinating snippits of history!

Ed

Lugerdoc · 08-22-2003, 08:30 AM

Frank, I disagree with your definition of KU. Having owned and studied a few of these over the years, I agree that they are mostly Mauser made parts (left over spares as Mauser was getting out of PO8 production in 1942) given to KH for assembly, to complete their second 10K contract for the Luftwaffe. Th

Frank · 08-22-2003, 09:47 AM

Hi Tom, It's really too bad that you didn't read my thread in more detail. It was NOT MY definition, but a paraphrase of the description in Jan's Book. I guess you jumped the gun a little, or a whole bunch

Pete Ebbink · 08-22-2003, 11:01 AM

Randall Gibson has outlined many interesting theories about the "KÃ??" lugers in his HK Parabellum book, as well...

He dedicates an entire chapter to this topic.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ronald Welch · 08-22-2003, 05:37 PM

Hi Folks
I was visiting the C-96 (broomhandle) and I was able to see and copy Mauser Production and serial numbers and dates. I wonder if someone has the same info for Lugers,and the different companys that made them? It would be nice for collectors.I hope its out there somewhere.

Ron Welch

Lugerdoc · 08-23-2003, 08:05 AM

Sorry Frank! I disagree with Still. TH

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2003, 12:24 PM

Hello Beth,

Welcome to the Luger Forum.

If you would like, I can send you hard copies of the pages from the Randal Gibson book...that deals with the theories about the origins of the Ku lugers.

If you send me a ship-to address at my e-mail address (pebbink@pacbell.net), I can get this copy out to you. A PO Box or a work address is fine; so you can maintain your home privacy...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 08-25-2003, 10:22 AM

Another message thread where the Krieghoff letter may shed some light...

I would be very interested to know what Jan Still's thoughts are regarding the Ku Lugers now that this letter has been made public...

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/HKletterKu

Pete Ebbink · 08-25-2003, 12:17 PM

Hello John,

Did Mike Jones say when this 1964-written letter was actually made public by his father ?

Which leads to another question : Was Jan Still aware of the letter at the time he wrote his book ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 08-25-2003, 01:18 PM

I really don't know the answer to your questions Pete...It has been more than a year since Mike Jones made me aware of the existence of the Krieghoff Letter... it was in his father's files...

I know that he occasionally visits the forum... perhaps he will see this thread and comment.

I don't know if Jan was aware of the letter at the time he wrote his book... if you get the chance to ask him, how about reporting back here. Jan is likely to be pretty busy restoring his website for a while but I am sure he will be responsive when he can. You might even invite him to comment on this thread Pete... His login to the forum hasn't changed... he just hasn't used it in a LONG while... I would welcome his participation.

Mike Jones · 08-25-2003, 05:29 PM

Pete,

Harry did not make this letter public knowledge as it is part of the text for volume two of his book. This is only one of many letters from Mr. Krieghoff concerning his Lugers. I did send both Jan and Randall a copy of this letter.

Regards,

Mike

Edward Tinker · 08-25-2003, 06:41 PM

Talked to Jan today, he said he received the copy of the letter, (he had not seen it until after his books were published), and says it puts the 1945 Krieghoff's into question.

Always interesting what you hear and see later...

Ed

John Sabato · 08-26-2003, 10:10 AM

Mike,

IS THERE a second volume of Luger Variations by your Father? If so I have never seen one.

Is this an unfinished book?

Please fill us in...

Thanks in advance.

Mike Jones · 08-26-2003, 01:19 PM

John,

Volume 2 of Luger Variations has been done for quite a number of years but was never published. I have not decided what I am going to do with it yet. In talking with Jan, it seems I have a lot of unknown information and photos of some rare guns. If I decide not to publish the book I will share the info with Jan for any future books he may do.

Regards,
Mike Jones

John Sabato · 08-26-2003, 01:36 PM

Great Mike...Please check your private messages...

08-21-2003, 08:07 AM	#1
Beth714 New User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Chillicothe, Ohio Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger SN 1216Ku I have a Luger P08, 9mm, Serial No. 1216Ku that was captured by my Dad when he was with Co. A 502nd Paratroop Infantry Regiment 101st Airborne Division, on May 6, 1945, at Reit Im Winkle, Austria, when a Division of German SS surrendered to Co. A. In 1964, he was told since it had the Ku by the serial number that it was manufactured by Mauser and issued by Krieghoff to the Luftwaffe and considered to be one of the rarer variations. Does anyone have any information in regards to this? Thanks.

08-21-2003, 10:01 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum Beth, If at all possible, please post photographs of this Luger for the forum to see... I just recently watched the complete HBO series called Band of Brothers... Salutes to your Dad for making sacrifices so that we might live with our freedoms the way we do today... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2003, 02:00 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,963 Thanks: 2,064 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Hello Elizabeth, welcome to the forum, your Dad's unit has a lot of history associated with it, so that is nice to have an heirloom like that! We would love to see pictures of the Luger? Any other items, bring back papers, holster, pics of old Dad in uniform? I collect stories, so I am always interested in these fascinating snippits of history! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-22-2003, 08:30 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Frank, I disagree with your definition of KU. Having owned and studied a few of these over the years, I agree that they are mostly Mauser made parts (left over spares as Mauser was getting out of PO8 production in 1942) given to KH for assembly, to complete their second 10K contract for the Luftwaffe. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-23-2003, 08:05 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Sorry Frank! I disagree with Still. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-21-2003, 09:44 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Beth, welcome to the Luger Forum. If you examine the top of the pistol, there should be a "41" over the chamber and a "byf" on the middle toggle. These Lugers have some controversy associated with them. In Jan Still's book Third Reich Lugers, he devotes a page explaining his research. The accepted story is that the KÃ?? stands for KÃ?Â¼mmerer, which means substandard or miss sized. From this he concludes that these pistols were made by Mauser for the Luftwaffe from leftover parts. It doesn't mean they were substandard in the final configuration since they must have passed the final inspection. Just some of the parts were not to the original Mauser Specifications. There were roughly 2700 of the byf 41 KÃ?? Lugers produced. Hope this helps!!

08-21-2003, 10:29 AM	#4
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	At the recent Reno gun show, the 101st Airborne Division, WW2 vet vintage, was having a large reunion on the floor below. It was great talking to these guys. Some were wearing their original uniforms! One was a survivor of the St. Mere Eglise jump. Many wanted to visit the gun show. What a humbling expeience for me (a Vietnam vet doctor).

08-21-2003, 12:15 PM	#5
Beth714 New User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Chillicothe, Ohio Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would like to thank all of you for providing me with information. Also, there is a 41 and a byf on the toggle. I still have my Dad's flight jacket. Also, I had the honor of serving with the United States Army and was stationed overseas in Germany--much in the same area my Dad was.

08-22-2003, 09:47 AM	#8
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Tom, It's really too bad that you didn't read my thread in more detail. It was NOT MY definition, but a paraphrase of the description in Jan's Book. I guess you jumped the gun a little, or a whole bunch

08-22-2003, 11:01 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Randall Gibson has outlined many interesting theories about the "KÃ??" lugers in his HK Parabellum book, as well... He dedicates an entire chapter to this topic. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-22-2003, 05:37 PM	#10
Ronald Welch User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Matthews,N.C. Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Folks I was visiting the C-96 (broomhandle) and I was able to see and copy Mauser Production and serial numbers and dates. I wonder if someone has the same info for Lugers,and the different companys that made them? It would be nice for collectors.I hope its out there somewhere. Ron Welch

08-23-2003, 12:24 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Beth, Welcome to the Luger Forum. If you would like, I can send you hard copies of the pages from the Randal Gibson book...that deals with the theories about the origins of the Ku lugers. If you send me a ship-to address at my e-mail address (pebbink@pacbell.net), I can get this copy out to you. A PO Box or a work address is fine; so you can maintain your home privacy... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-25-2003, 10:22 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Another message thread where the Krieghoff letter may shed some light... I would be very interested to know what Jan Still's thoughts are regarding the Ku Lugers now that this letter has been made public... http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/HKletterKu __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-25-2003, 12:17 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello John, Did Mike Jones say when this 1964-written letter was actually made public by his father ? Which leads to another question : Was Jan Still aware of the letter at the time he wrote his book ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-25-2003, 01:18 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I really don't know the answer to your questions Pete...It has been more than a year since Mike Jones made me aware of the existence of the Krieghoff Letter... it was in his father's files... I know that he occasionally visits the forum... perhaps he will see this thread and comment. I don't know if Jan was aware of the letter at the time he wrote his book... if you get the chance to ask him, how about reporting back here. Jan is likely to be pretty busy restoring his website for a while but I am sure he will be responsive when he can. You might even invite him to comment on this thread Pete... His login to the forum hasn't changed... he just hasn't used it in a LONG while... I would welcome his participation. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-25-2003, 05:29 PM	#16
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Pete, Harry did not make this letter public knowledge as it is part of the text for volume two of his book. This is only one of many letters from Mr. Krieghoff concerning his Lugers. I did send both Jan and Randall a copy of this letter. Regards, Mike

08-25-2003, 06:41 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,963 Thanks: 2,064 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	Talked to Jan today, he said he received the copy of the letter, (he had not seen it until after his books were published), and says it puts the 1945 Krieghoff's into question. Always interesting what you hear and see later... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-26-2003, 10:10 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Mike, IS THERE a second volume of Luger Variations by your Father? If so I have never seen one. Is this an unfinished book? Please fill us in... Thanks in advance. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-26-2003, 01:19 PM	#19
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	John, Volume 2 of Luger Variations has been done for quite a number of years but was never published. I have not decided what I am going to do with it yet. In talking with Jan, it seems I have a lot of unknown information and photos of some rare guns. If I decide not to publish the book I will share the info with Jan for any future books he may do. Regards, Mike Jones

08-26-2003, 01:36 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Great Mike...Please check your private messages... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*