Shipping a luger?

[Bob in OH]

I have a C/R and it's my understanding that handguns must be shipped overnight to CR or FFL.
I did this recently and used FEDEX with a broomhandle.

My questions are...

Will the US Postal Service ship handguns without a hassle?
IS the overnight shipping a requirement?

TIA...Bob

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Bob in OH:
<strong>... Will the US Postal Service ship handguns without a hassle?
IS the overnight shipping a requirement?

TIA...Bob</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Bob,

I just recieved a C&R handgun USPS - sent "priority" and insured. Signature required on delivery. This was shipped simply as Priority - not "overnight". The shipper was a Sgt. (Detective) in a large city who is a FFL holder and sells about 5-10 pistols per month and sends only via USPS Priority (not next day)...

As for me - I always use "Next Day", as it makes me feel better - but as you know - Fedex requires it...

Hope this helps!

[Herb]

Bob, it is illegal to ship a handgun using the USPS, by law they must go by FEDEX or UPS. I have been told that they also have to go by next day air. One way around this is to break it down and ship it as parts in two separate packages. I shipped and recieved a Luger to and from a refinisher by removing all the internal parts thereby shipping only parts to him. Went regular UPS.

[John Sabato]

Shipping it in separate parts in more than one package is also an aid to preventing theft of a complete handgun. Most package handlers wouldn't bother with "just parts"... but if they suspect it might be a $1000 handgun or more, then it might just fall off the truck or be reported as just being left on the porch because no one was home at delivery time... I know a guy who lost a STEN subgun that way...

[unspellable]

If you ship a dissassembled pistol via USPS in two containers, the frame WILL be considered a firearm, NOT a part.

As for shipping a firearm via USPS between CR's or FFL's, I am out of date and will bow to those with more up to date legal knowledge.

I once had UPS leave a rifle in the bushes in front of my house. That was the end of that method. If you cannot gurantee someone is there to receive it, arrange to pick it up.

[Hugh]

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Here are the US Government published regulations regarding the shipping of firearms thru the US Postal Service. They may be found at the USPS website. Way down in there it states that an unloaded handgun may be mailed from a licensed manufacturer or dealer to another licensed manufacturer or dealer.

<img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> I quote from the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the BATF: "While a licensed collector may acquire curios or relics and dispose of same from a personal collection, the collector is not authorized to engage in a firearms dealing business in curios or relics pursuant to a collectors's license."

In Postal regulation 432.1c listed below, it states that "Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0."431.3

Section 431.3 states:
"Antique Firearm
An antique firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:
a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available through ordinary commercial trade channels."

SOOOOOOOOO it seems to me that a Luger is not an "antique firearm" by US Postal Service regulations, and a C&R licensee is not a dealer, so I will continue to refrain from mailing Lugers thru the US Mail. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
b. Short-Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches long is defined as a short-barreled rifle. This includes any weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
c. Short-Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches long is defined as a short-barreled shotgun. This includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
431.3 Antique Firearm
An antique firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:
a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available through ordinary commercial trade channels.
431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in length. A shotgun has a barrel of 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be capable of being concealed on a person.
431.5 Licensed Manufacturer/Licensed Dealer
A manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer in firearms is one duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), U.S. Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968.
432 Mailability
432.1 General
The following conditions apply:
a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.
d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.
432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.
Exhibit 432.1
Mailability Requirements for Firearms

Handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer or dealer, an authorized federal agent, or an authorized state, territory, or district agent ONLY when addressed to one of the following addressee categories for use in official duties:
Addressee Affidavit Requirements
a. Officer of Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or organized reserve corps.
b. Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, district, or territory.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by commanding officer.
c. Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
d. USPS employees specifically authorized by the chief postal inspector.
e. Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by head of agency employing the addressee.
f. Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district, or territory property.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau, or branch of government agency employing the addressee.
g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of an agency employing officers and personnel included in c, d, or e above.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and certificate signed by the head of agency stating the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in c, d, or e of the opposite column.
Unloaded Handgun
Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed manufacturer or dealer. Addressee is FBI (or it's director) or scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or territory officers authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment. Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS form 1508, Statement by Shipper of firearms, and file with postmaster.
Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling.

Unloaded Rifle or Shotgun
Short-barrelled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on a person are nonmailable.
Mailer must comply with Gun Control Act of 1968 and with the state and local laws. USPS may require mailer to open parcel or give written certification that weapon is unloaded and not concealable. Registered mail service is recommended.

Unloaded Antique Firearm
Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable for mailing.

432.3 Packaging and Marking
No markings of any kind that indicate the nature of the contents may be placed on the outside wrapper or container of any mailpiece containing firearms. Mailable matter must be properly and securely packaged within the general packaging requirements in DMM C010.
433 Mailer Responsibility
Even though certain types of firearms are permitted to be mailed within the provisions of the postal law in 18 U.S.C. 1715, it is the mailer's responsibility to comply with all federal and state regulations and local ordinances affecting the movement of firearms.
434 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Mailers should be referred to the nearest regional ATF office for further advice.

[Stu]

I believe that Hugh is quite correct in his interpretation. A CR is not a dealer license, ergo you may not ship USPS.

Having said that; I've received pistols from dealers that way, (not always overnight), and it's a lot cheaper !

I use UPS or Fedex and follow the rules. I'm always concerned that if you break the shipping rules and the gun was stolen you might have a hard time collecting insurance or, even worse, it was used in a crime, what liability someone might try to pin on you.

[Edward Tinker]

That was my understanding also, and although it costs a bit more, I use FedEx or UPS Overnight, although I make sure I find the smallest box, wrap it secure and ship it.
Since anything overnight doesn't go by weight, but by size of the box, the smallest box possible can save you ten dollars...

[John D.]

Ummm - not to cast another vote - but Hugh is correct (I also have rec'd handguns under my C&R via folks who choose USPS, as an FFL - as I mentioned..)....

Just another data point..... (Again )

[Thor]

Ship by UPS or Fedex ONLY, next day air is my policy! Ask ATF, they govern this stuff!

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John D.:
<strong>Ummm - not to cast another vote....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hmmm- OK - I just re-read it - again....

So - is a C&R License a License? Or does just the sending party have to be the FFL? Or - is the USPS just for Class 1/3 holders???

It would seem strange that one gov't agency licenses a person (BATF) - and another gov't agency says you aren't licensed (USPS)..??

Hmmm - I need a beer and think about all this..!!!

[Thor]

C&R FFL is a Class 3 FFL

[John D.]

Cool. Does that mean I can buy Class 3 Firearms under my Class 3 lic.? <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> See below:

From http://www.vectorarms.com/how_to_own.html

"How To Own A Machine Gun
You can be the first on your block to legally own a machine gun if you meet these federal requirements:

You must be a U.S. citizen over 21 years of age.
You must live in a state that allows Class 3 weapons (find out here).
You must be clear of any felonies as verified by an F.B.I. background check.
You must submit a fingerprint card and two passport photos, which are kept on file by the BATF.
You must obtain a signature from your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer verifying that you have no local felonies and are mentally stable.
You must pay a one-time $200.00 federal tax for each full-auto weapon or suppressor purchased.
HOW TO OBTAIN A FULL-AUTO DIRECT FROM US:

Locate a nearby Class 3 dealer in your state of residence, to whom your weapon must be transferred, and from whom you must take possession in person (BATF requirements). Arrange for the dealer to send us his FFL (Federal Firearms License) and SOT (Class 3 permit). Class 3 dealers will typically charge a $50-$150 fee for assisting you through this process.

Send us the full payment and we will set aside your weapon with its registered serial number. We will then complete and submit a BATF Form 3 to transfer the weapon to your local Class 3 dealer. The Form 3 takes 2-3 weeks to process.

Download and print out a BATF Form 4 from our website, or obtain one from your Class 3 dealer and fill it out.

Obtain two passport photos.

Visit your local police or sheriffâ??s headquarters to obtain a fingerprint card and be fingerprinted (this is freeâ??your Class 3 dealer may also have these cards.) While you are there, leave the Form 4 with the CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) for him to sign as verification that you have no local crime record or mental instability.

When we receive the approved Form 3 from the BATF, we will forward the firearm to your Class 3 dealer.

When your dealer receives the weapon, he will submit to the BATF your Form 4, photos, fingerprints and your $200 check (made out to the BATF). Approval nomally takes ninety days, and includes the background check. Once your dealer receives the approved Form 4 back from the BATF, you may take possession of your firearm.

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, with a C&R you can buy a class 3 weapon, (provided you fill out the proper paperwork, pay the $200, and wait )

[John D.]

Hey - I don't have to wait - I have a Class 3 License..!!! I just ordered a 50mm turrent mounted machine gun with the dual side-rocket anti-tank launchers.... I was considering the Howitzer - but USPS said they couldn't ship....

This is all in fun - soooooo.....

Bob - just ship FEDEX or UPS - I have a feeling that the USPS shipments I got were "Open to further discussion"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

JD, you are being silly. Do you know how much that would cost in overnight shipping!!!



let alone ammo, but hey, that would be coooool

[John D.]

Ed...

I am not silly - rather, I am the Lugerforum curmudgeon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Oh - overnight shipping is only 10% of the purchase price... Know how much dual side-rocket anti-tank launchers cost.??? YOWZAAAA!!!!

[Edward Tinker]

I caint even spel crudmodeon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dwight Gruber]

Guys, guys, guys, I find it necessary here, for the benefit of the innocent or unwary who might stumble onto this discussion, that a C&R license is a class 03, not a class 3.

I guess that makes me the crumod...cermud...grumpy person here.

--Dwight

[Roadkill]

John D, you are killing me laughing with the avatar. Would you send me that to my email? I'd love to pass it around.

rk