What about titanium as a Luger frame material??

[G.T.]

I know that the Mauser lugers used a bit better steel then DWM, and I know that they experimented with lightweight alloys at some time or another (not with much success evidently)... zinc being one of them.. now we have stainless Lugers, and I have not really heard much feedback on frame peening, so i'll assume it's not a problem... What about titanium?? It would be super strong.. and light, but what about friction, wear, and impact, surface hardness??? How about the cannon parts?? Would they be too light? How about it, some of our engineer guys should know this one?? Best to all! til...lat'r...GT

[John Sabato]

This sounds like a question for Viggo Dereng, our resident retired NASA Mechanical Engineer, maker of fine wood replacement Luger mag bottoms (as do YOU), and all around great guy...

I am just guessing here GT, but I think that titanium has great structural strength, but has not much resistance to the hammering of the toggle... I don't think any material other than a good steel allow could put up with the pounding of the toggle knobs on the frame ramps...

JUST MY $0.02 Now let's see what Viggo or one of our other engineer members has to say on the subject...

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

You are correct. Titanium would lack one important feature of steel. You could call it impact resistance. The titanium would beat itself into some unuseable shape in a short time. Maybe someone could work out a steel insert in the titanium, using investment casting. I read a report where someone was considering making a barrel out of titanium. They figured on the first shot the rifling would mashed flat. Due to a lack of impact resistance. You could make several parts out of titanium, but would it be enough to matter. A polymer frame looks more promising and doable, plus easier accomplish

[AGE]

Guys,

S&W makes lightweight revolvers with titanium cylinders (I have one). Taurus makes revolvers with titanium frames, and 1911 titanium frames are on the market. Also, there is at least one rifle with a titanium action on the market.

I suspect titanium would work great as a frame for any firearm. The stuff is hard to machine and pretty expensive. (I have 48 years of ME experience including jet engine, rocket engine and nuclear reactor design.)

[ViggoG]

Hi John, and GT,
After 23 years of absence from that confounded metal I have tried to forget the problems that machining the early Titanium Alloys Presented.
The Metal was tough, stringy, soft, easily dented, penetration resistant, and abrasive to the cutting tools. The metal was easily galling, and in general a machinists nightmare.
I had the experience of band sawing 4ea Ã?¼” x 1” x 6” specimen blanks from the first piece of it to appear in the machine shop in the early 1950’s.
The cost was 2 complete coils of High Speed Do-All Band Saw Blades (50’ per coil @ 6 blades per coil) dulled to uselessness. Ten pounds of high-speed steel band saw blade destroyed in cutting just 4 ea 2 oz titanium specimens.
Things had improved substantially in the machinability of this material before I retired, but nothing has blunted the bad memories that remain in my mind of that first day and being called the one who needed a tool steel battleship to build a titanium airplane.
I agree with John, I cannot conceive that titanium will be useful in manufacturing a Luger Frame or any complex part that receives high impact stress.
ViggoG

[John Sabato]

Thanks for confirmation Viggo...

Al Eggers, I only did ME work for a couple of years and most of it was focused on Aluminum and stainless steel...

You have to remember that the Titanium cylinders do not take any pounding... they meerly contain the pressure of the detonated cartridge... The Frames (like taurus) get "pushed" by the recoiling cartridge case which causes the frame to stretch and contract, but not get hammered...

If there is a 1911 type frame being cast of Titanium, I am sure that there is a buffer in use to keep the bottom face of the recoil spring and plug from hammering the forward edge of the magazine well... this is a tough area of a 1911 frame, but I doubt that a 1911 made of the stuff would last anywhere near as long as the steel frames. The aluminum frame 1911's are lightweight for carry purposes, but don't last as long as a steel frame...

The only rifle on the market with an action made out of titanium (that I know about) is some of the clone AR-15 receivers... These only hold all of the trigger group and support the magazine... again there is no hammering stress on the action.

The Luger design on the other hand, requires the toggle knobs, made of hardened steel to be thrust back to solidly impact on the hardened tempered steel ramps of the frame ears in order to unlock the action in the moment of discharge. It is this "hammering" that causes peening of the metal even in a steel Luger...and this same peening would happen much quicker with Titanium if it didn't shatter the "ears" because of it's brittleness.

It makes me shudder to think that anyone would consider making a Luger frame out of Zinc... but they did and they failed miserably... just the wrong design for lightweight material.

In short, I think titanium would work great for any application where light weight and sturctural strength are required, but not where constant hammering or impacts with steel hardened surfaces are commonplace... like the Luger.

Just my $0.02 worth of experience and research...

[G.T.]

Hi John, Viggo, Al & all! I did some netsurfing last night, as I am always dreaming of new & impossible luger tasks that I can get involved with. And I found quite a few interesting sites on titanium.. it would seem that some of the new titanium alloys can be heat treated and are impact resistant! To what degree, I don't know, because I have not the training to interpret the data?? I agree Zinc would be a terrible choice, and those guys were probably shot for being so stupid... but, I have seen quite a few lugers, and have never seen one with ramps that were unservicable... or hardly even worn for that matter... I have always been told that stainless is soft also, yet it seems to be holding up quite well in the newest Lugers?? (feedback??) interesting thread so far, What about the receiver... no impact there?? Til...lat'r...GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

[Dwight Gruber]

GT,

I have seen a Luger or two, the fronts of whose frame ears were beginning to show impact deformation, with consequent widening at the impact area which could, eventually, impinge on the rear of the receiver rails.

Interesting thought about making the receiver out of titanium. I wonder, how much effect would this single piece have on the overall weight of the gun? Would there be any problem with the thread juncture between a steel barrel and a titanium receiver? Would there be wear problems along the length of the frame/receiver rails?

--Dwight

[Vlim]

An interesting way to prevent sliding wear, also on lighter alloys is used in several car engine designs.

The sliding point is covered with tiny silica pieces. The surface is etched slightly to bring the silica pieces to the surface, providing a glasshard sliding area.

I also wonder how a much less steep, longer ramp would hold out? The main objective of the ramp is to get the toggle joint above a certain level and this can be done with a much less steep angle as used on the traditional luger design. A less steep ramp would be able to withstand the forces applied upon it much better?

It would certainly create an interesting gun design

[John Sabato]

Dwight, I think I would be concerned about the rear axle pin wearing out the holes in a Titanium upper receiver, but if that were not an issue, then I don't know why it wouldn't work for an upper receiver unless there would be an chemical reaction between the steel barrel and the titanium receiver...

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

I had similar experiences to ViggoG. I worked for LTV, and it was real fun cutting titanium. We made all sorts of things in exotic shapes out of the stuff. I used to wear out those expensive band saw blades pretty quickly just cutting titanium to a useful size. I know there were a few things they wanted to make out of it, but it just wouldn't work. The only thing I hated worse, was inconel. The guns you see currently with titanium in their construction, are using the titanium in more of a supporting role. None of the parts are taking a real beating. The Luger is a very well integrated design, with many parts directly involved in handling the peration of the gun, and they get to handle some serious blows. If you look at the slide on a Browning design, it is more of a cover for what is going on inside the gun. It could be made of titanium. As far as stainless in the new Lugers. It is investment cast, and therefore quite strong. I do not know which stainless Orimar is using, but there are many types of stainless. There is one called 17-4 which is extremely strong and used in the landing gear of many aircraft. There is a stressful application!!!

[G.T.]

Hi Guys! I have a small piece of cut off waste titanium from and artificial knee joint casting.... really is amazing ...looks like polished stainless, but weighs pratically nothing! Anyway... i took my small ballpeen hammer and got after it... It did deform rather rapidly.... not very far, but very soon.. Now this is not too good a test, as I am not using anything to compare too, but, you can beat on a drill bit all day long, (with my little hammer)and hardly mark it... So, that brings up this question... what is hard enough??? where on the rockwell scale would you have to be, to make a frame last?? Any material would have to have a minimum resistance to deformation to be feasible, as would the design... maybe titanium, with stainless inserts??? On the towers, and frame back? til...lat'r...GT

[unspellable]

The main reason for using titanium, aluminum, plastic, etc. is usually in an effort to cut weight. One of the things I like about the Luger is that the weight is just right as is. Points well, recoil doesn't bother you, etc. I don't use it for a hide out gun so carry weight doesn't matter. So for me there is no incentive to use exotic materials other than to be "different". Might just as well plate it or something.

[ViggoG]

Achtung !!
Probably the best candidate for modernizing the Luger, especially in lower energy or for longer barreled applications, might be the toughest Aluminum alloy that I have worked with, 7075-T6, which would require a rifled steel liner.
As I recall it out performs the better grade of free machining carbon steel alloys in every thing but abrasive resistance and galling or seizing problems. (When compared by weight)
Using a mix of carbon steels, moly steels, 17-4 St Stl, and / or titanium, and fiber matrix polycarbonates could reduce these latter problems.
The Result might not be as pretty as we are now familiar with but certainly feasible.
If one wishes to enter into a very expensive research program to determine the most applicable uses for each.
My Nickel is expended, Nuf Said.
ViggoG

[G.T.]

Viggo! Hi! Do you think 7075 - t6 would stand up to the pounding if it were used as a frame material?? Til...lat'r...GT

[wterrell]

we must keep in mind the balance of the pistol and feel in our hand.
With lightweight pistols the forces are not resisted by the weight of the gun, but are transferred to the hand and wrist.
Also, the two prime considerations of frame construction would be shock and elasticity.
Titanium alloys are quite different than pure titanium. The range of characteristics of these alloys is so wide and divergent that very few characteristics can be attributed to the whole titanium genre.
(Lack of elasticity would result in fracturing of the titanium. There are equations presented in most metalurgy texts demonstrating the relationship of force, shock, and elasticity which will answer your questions quickly.)
Aluminum presents the same problems.

[AGE]

G.T.

I am answering your PM as another response to this thread since it is receiving so much attention. According to the May/June American Handgunner Caspian is making a titanium 1911 frame that is investment cast. It is .8 oz heavier than an aluminum frame so it is attractive in that application. They don't mention the specific alloy but Petty, the AH 1911 guru, seemed quite happy with the gun after extensive shooting. The article also mentioned that Remington uses titanium in a rifle action, but the specific model wasn't mentioned.

In my experience GE has used titanium in jet engine compressor blades for many years. These are complicated parts subjected to lots of extreme loadings. Titanium was also used in the core support structure of the NERVA nuclear rocket. This was a big complicated part and I'm not really sure why titanium was selected as the material (about 6 or 7 were made).

I don't remember what specific titanium alloys were used in the blades or core support structure, but they weren't investment cast. I do have a few old reports somewhere and I could probably dig out some info. if someone desperately needed it.

It's true that there is not a whole lot of bearing wear or impact going on in the 1911 frame or S&W cylinder (or in the compressor blades or support structure).

But what is the real point of this thread??? What would be gained with an aluminum or titanium Luger frame? I'm sure it could be made and would work pretty well for awhile at least (if titanium is that hard to machine it should hold up to considerable wear). Are we trying to "what if" the German Luger designers of 100+ years ago? Why? Neat as it is the Luger is the day before yesterday's weapon, not today's.

I guess I'll keep my Lugers the way the Germans designed them but I wouldn't mind a titanium 1911, especially with a Damascus slide like the AH article. Damascus, now there's another topic to discuss...... Oh well, it's about bedtime.

[G.T.]

Hi Al & All! Thanks for the reply Al... I agree, there certainly isn't any real need to revisit the Lugers construction & materials... other then a fasination with the new exotic materials that seem to be popping up in every form of firearm made today! I like the Lugers of old, and I believe that they were far ahead of their time, even if it was short lived as a cutting edge military firearm... They used the best materials they had, and did it right! Now we have infinitely better material, and seemingly unlimited capibilities! Yet, no one, with the exception of Mike Krause, has, in my opinion, done it right! Old design or New!
I spend a large portion of my day working, wondering, and dwelling on Luger parts and production... I was born 100 years too late for the old, but I'm right on time for the new! You never know, the luger, and, maybe even the South, may rise again! best to all! til...lat'r....GT <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

[ViggoG]

GT,
I was thinking of the weight factor and using the 7075-T6 for cannon forks and barrel exteriors for lower specific impulse applications. T-"x" is a heat treating specification. Where 0 = dead soft, and 6 = the hardest)
I hardly think that it would be worthwhile to machine a Luger frame from stock 7075 aluminum alloy, the machining characteristics are not that much superior to low carbon steels with sulfur added for fee machining. And the steel machines so much smoother.
The 1100 series carbon steels are probably the best, when balancing the ease of machining against the life expectancy of the Pistol.
I believe that the early types of steels developed by "Krupp" were the best Barrel steels of the day and for many years there were no better steel for rifling.
To my knowlege 1137 was the most frequently used barrel steel from the early 1900's to the 1960's, when sintered carbide and ceramic button drawing tools replaced the tool steel rifling cutters used by "Pope"and the other great barrel makers.
ViggoG