Counterfeit PP Presentation gun

Orv Reichert · 07-26-2002, 11:25 AM

The following warning was posted by Dieter Marschall on the P38 and PP forums...I repeat it here for the Luger folks! ...Orv
==================
There is a Walther PP on the market, which is said to be the SS-General Karl Wolff?s personal engraved golden PP (www.gunandarchery.com).

At the bottom of the blued (!) trigger guard are the words ?FÃ?Â¼r Karl Wolff?. This gun comes with a uniform and other items and is offered for $100, 000.00 Dollars.

Beware:

Last year that PP # 293 012 P was still an engraved PP in the white (!) and without any dedication on the triggerguard.
===========
This is a good example of why it is important to report COMPLETE serial numbers!

Orv Reichert

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Orv Reichert · 07-27-2002, 02:02 PM

The dealer with the $100K fake PP has gone 'off line' for some reason? [tee hee]

Here are the photos I copied yesterday

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-1.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-2.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-3.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-4.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-5.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-6.jpg

If someone knows this dealer, can you find out the history or source of these artifacts? The dealer should file criminal charges against the people who tried to involve him in the sale of a forgery/fraud attempt for $100K!

Orv Reichert

Marvin · 07-27-2002, 03:11 PM

Karl Wolff's engraved, gold plated, H. Himmler presentation pistol is in the West Point Museum. The real pistol has definetly better quality than the one currently for sale. I can't believe that the name on the pistol "Fur Karl Wolff" is so poorly done either!

Marvin

wterrell · 07-27-2002, 07:53 PM

Marvin,

Where, on the internet, would a person go to view a pic of the pistol in the West Point Museum?

Marvin · 07-28-2002, 07:03 AM

wes,

I don't know about the internet, but the pistol is pictured in Whittington's volume II, page 184 & 185, of "German Pistols and Holsters 1934-1945".

The photo is black&white, but is very nice! Sure would be good to see it in color.

Marvin

Roadkill · 07-28-2002, 10:16 AM

Great job, Orv. I bet you are real popular with someone right now. Sad part is someboby somewhere at sometime paid a lot of money for a fake. A nice fake, but still a fake. Wonder how many high dollar guns are carefully put away by sincere collectors who purchased them in good faith and will find out later what someone had to discover on this one. Ya'll high dollar Luger collectors really need to work out a verification plan.

RK

RK

Heydrich · 07-28-2002, 06:53 PM

Good sarcasm RK, I’m sure the dealer wants to put his boot to Orv’s butt instead. The “Furr Karl Wolff” engraving is almost comical. Look at the “L” on the Wolff part, LOL. The SS lighting bolts look poorly done too. It’s strange, every time I see the SS insignia lately, I think of the Rock band Kiss. The symbolism is very similar to the band’s logo. I wonder of that’s a coincidence?

Lots of fakes out there lately. Here is one I saw on AA last week:

www.auctionarms.com/searc...um=2981145

Obvious fake. Look at the buttplate, buttplate screws, and some of the screws for the scope mount. They look new. All BCD coded sniper rifles should have the thick flat receiver also. Someone bid $3,200 on it, and even that was not enough. Lots of money at stack with German collectables. It’s really kind of sad that the hobby I got into with such enthusiasm years ago has descended down to the level we are seeing. Kind of reminds me of the shysters in the Middle Ages who sold fake Holy relics. It looks like even the Shroud of Turin is a Medieval fake. Anything to make a buck.

Roadkill · 07-28-2002, 07:37 PM

Yup. The difficult thing is that the lettering on the Kreighof/Suhl at the other post looks as bad as the fake PP, and its verified. I'm glad I don't have the big $ to spend on that type of stuff.

RK

Dwight Gruber · 07-29-2002, 04:39 AM

RK, I don't think that the Krieghoff in the photograph is anything close to verified. One correspondent commented that it -seemed- legit, and then the whole discussion devolved into a discussion about Ralph Shattuck. Frankly, I was hoping for some more substantive discussion, hopefully including pictures of known legitimate guns. The notation that Gibson has some representitive pictures is only useful if one owns Gibson.

--Dwight

07-26-2002, 11:25 AM	#1
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Counterfeit PP Presentation gun The following warning was posted by Dieter Marschall on the P38 and PP forums...I repeat it here for the Luger folks! ...Orv ================== There is a Walther PP on the market, which is said to be the SS-General Karl Wolff?s personal engraved golden PP (www.gunandarchery.com). At the bottom of the blued (!) trigger guard are the words ?FÃ?Â¼r Karl Wolff?. This gun comes with a uniform and other items and is offered for $100, 000.00 Dollars. Beware: Last year that PP # 293 012 P was still an engraved PP in the white (!) and without any dedication on the triggerguard. =========== This is a good example of why it is important to report COMPLETE serial numbers! Orv Reichert <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-27-2002, 02:02 PM	#2
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The dealer with the $100K fake PP has gone 'off line' for some reason? [tee hee] Here are the photos I copied yesterday http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-1.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-2.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-3.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-4.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-5.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/293012-P-6.jpg If someone knows this dealer, can you find out the history or source of these artifacts? The dealer should file criminal charges against the people who tried to involve him in the sale of a forgery/fraud attempt for $100K! Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-27-2002, 07:53 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Marvin, Where, on the internet, would a person go to view a pic of the pistol in the West Point Museum? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-27-2002, 03:11 PM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karl Wolff's engraved, gold plated, H. Himmler presentation pistol is in the West Point Museum. The real pistol has definetly better quality than the one currently for sale. I can't believe that the name on the pistol "Fur Karl Wolff" is so poorly done either! Marvin

07-28-2002, 07:03 AM	#5
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	wes, I don't know about the internet, but the pistol is pictured in Whittington's volume II, page 184 & 185, of "German Pistols and Holsters 1934-1945". The photo is black&white, but is very nice! Sure would be good to see it in color. Marvin

07-28-2002, 10:16 AM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Great job, Orv. I bet you are real popular with someone right now. Sad part is someboby somewhere at sometime paid a lot of money for a fake. A nice fake, but still a fake. Wonder how many high dollar guns are carefully put away by sincere collectors who purchased them in good faith and will find out later what someone had to discover on this one. Ya'll high dollar Luger collectors really need to work out a verification plan. RK RK

07-28-2002, 06:53 PM	#7
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Good sarcasm RK, I’m sure the dealer wants to put his boot to Orv’s butt instead. The “Furr Karl Wolff” engraving is almost comical. Look at the “L” on the Wolff part, LOL. The SS lighting bolts look poorly done too. It’s strange, every time I see the SS insignia lately, I think of the Rock band Kiss. The symbolism is very similar to the band’s logo. I wonder of that’s a coincidence? Lots of fakes out there lately. Here is one I saw on AA last week: www.auctionarms.com/searc...um=2981145 Obvious fake. Look at the buttplate, buttplate screws, and some of the screws for the scope mount. They look new. All BCD coded sniper rifles should have the thick flat receiver also. Someone bid $3,200 on it, and even that was not enough. Lots of money at stack with German collectables. It’s really kind of sad that the hobby I got into with such enthusiasm years ago has descended down to the level we are seeing. Kind of reminds me of the shysters in the Middle Ages who sold fake Holy relics. It looks like even the Shroud of Turin is a Medieval fake. Anything to make a buck.

07-28-2002, 07:37 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Yup. The difficult thing is that the lettering on the Kreighof/Suhl at the other post looks as bad as the fake PP, and its verified. I'm glad I don't have the big $ to spend on that type of stuff. RK

07-29-2002, 04:39 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	RK, I don't think that the Krieghoff in the photograph is anything close to verified. One correspondent commented that it -seemed- legit, and then the whole discussion devolved into a discussion about Ralph Shattuck. Frankly, I was hoping for some more substantive discussion, hopefully including pictures of known legitimate guns. The notation that Gibson has some representitive pictures is only useful if one owns Gibson. --Dwight