OT: USGI 1911A1 with German proofs

MarkC · 07-18-2002, 01:13 PM

I thought that some of you fellow collectors can help me with a gun I considering for purchase.

It is a USGI Colt 1911A1 (government property stamped) in the 900,000 serial number range with matching numbered slide. The gun is refinished in dark blue and has the post war German E/N on the right slide. Under the slide release lever it has:

Hege
E/N KF and (antler proof)

The barrel is also marked as with the E/N KF and(antler proof)

Any ideas as to what this means? Value?

Thanks!

Orv Reichert · 07-18-2002, 01:53 PM

Recent Ulm proofs...[antler] HK is the year code. I am sure somone will decode it for us? [98?]

Orv Reichert

MarkC · 07-18-2002, 02:03 PM

Upon further inspection, the gun is not refinished but unissued with a dark coat of cosmoline over the parkerized finish.

Doubs · 07-18-2002, 03:37 PM

Mark, just as in England, Germany requires unproofed guns that are to be sold on the civilian market to pass their proof houses. My 1927 Argentine Colt is also proofed in Germany, indicating that the Argentines sold the pistol to a German firm who, in turn, sold it to the US importer.

Your GI 1911A1 may have been captured during the war and proofed only when it was privately sold. Or it may have been part of a larger consignment of guns imported for civilian sale. There's really no way of telling that I'm aware of.

Roadkill · 07-18-2002, 03:52 PM

Germany used many surplus pistols in post war era for its police and army, yours is probably one of them. I had a Inglis Browing High Power arsenal refinished by them, beautiful gun. Markings I'm not sure of. Don't know if the markings are a + or - , here is one on auction, make your own judgement. I put $800 in an excellent Rem 1911A1 made in 1945. How much for yours?

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=2962740

RK

Edward Tinker · 07-18-2002, 04:03 PM

The tracking down of the history of a gun is very interesting. Seeing that proof mark and wondering, hmmmmm??

Makes the hobby worthwhile when you figure it out.
[img]smile.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 07-18-2002, 04:04 PM

Ed, wish my wife saw it that way. Check your email. Gotta be in an O club.

RK

MarkC · 07-18-2002, 04:24 PM

RK,

Seller wants $1,800.00 for the gun. It is 100% unissued with dark cosmoline on the surface. Grips are very sharp. It is an early war gun since it has the matching serial number on the slide under the firing pin retainer. GHD initials in a line.

I am begining to like the gun and may keep it. The pistol on autionarms is now at $1,500.00 with the reserve not met.

The info about the gun sold to the civilian market makes sense. Anyone able to date code it for me?

I do like digging into the history of our collectable guns, this is fun !!

Mark

Roadkill · 07-18-2002, 05:02 PM

Maybe somebody here will remember, about a year ago I posted a website that would provide the date of MFG on a US military firearm based on the SN. I've got to hang around here another hour or so, maybe I can find it. Price is out of my range and I'm a mongrel shooter guy anyway but it may not be unrealistic.

RK

Found it!The site http://oldguns.net on the very bottom of the main page will tell you the year of
manufacture of US military firearms by entering the serial number. Click on the MAIN PAGE
on the blue screen then scroll all the way down. Don't do it from here cause I couldn't get
back without completely closing the system but that might be my problem.

MarkC · 07-18-2002, 05:54 PM

Thanks, the gun was made in '43. A fellow collector e mailed me this.....Any gun legally owned by a German citizen must go through one of
the German prrof houses where they are tested with loads from 1 1/2 times
normal load to 3 times normal load. After passing test, they are proofed.
The antler on your gun means that the gun was proofed at Ulm. This is the
same proof house where all of the Walther manufactured guns are tested. Gun
could have possibly been issued to post-war German police under US
occupation.....

Johnny Peppers · 07-18-2002, 10:58 PM

Mark,
Be wary of buying the pistol coated in cosmoline. The pistols were not originally packed in cosmoline, and it would have been thoroughly cleaned when proofed in Germany. The cosmoline would have to be added at some later date, and adds nothing to the pistol.

Herb · 07-18-2002, 11:11 PM

Not being a collector of Colts I am wondering what a model 1911, made in 1918, in good condition would be worth, any idea? There is a stamp on the left side of the frame above the magazine release that looks like a penguin over S14?

Johnny Peppers · 07-19-2002, 02:31 AM

Herb,
The mark you are seeing is an eagle head with the inspectors number under it. At approximately serial number 303,000 the practice of putting the initials of the Inspector of Ordnance for Springfield Armory assigned to the pistols manufacturer was changed to the eagle head with an inspectors number. The Inspector of Ordnance did not actually stamp each pistol, but was responsible for their production and acceptance for the government. The practice of using the eagle head with inspectors number continued until the end of production of the 1911 in early 1919. The pistols manufactured by Remington UMC will show both the initials of the Inspector of Ordnance and the eagle head as the engineering drawings designated where the initials were to go, and Remington complied.

Herb · 07-19-2002, 03:23 AM

JP, not to disagree but that sucker sure looks like a penguin to me. You are correct about the # it is 344,973. Maybe the eagle heads looked like penguins back then, LOL. <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Johnny Peppers · 07-19-2002, 11:35 AM

Herb,
It really is an eagle head and not the entire eagle.

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2002, 12:38 PM

It does look like a penguin, but I don't think anyone chose a penguin for their proofs / markings [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 07-19-2002, 07:12 PM

Herb,
Your Colt 1911 was probably shipped either June 21 or June 25, 1918 to the Ordnance Depot, Bush Terminal, Brooklyn, N.Y. This indicates that it probably was shipped to France for the US troops. The picture indicates that it has WWII plastic grips and a 1911A1 slide stop.

Roadkill · 07-19-2002, 11:02 PM

Vikings used to use a crow frequently. Was a symbol of the scavenger of the battlefield, a sign of impending death. Penguins are tough critters, but threatening, nope. Can you imagine hearing the parade marshall announcing "next in line is the famous Penguin battalion, fearless, frostbit and frozen, waddling to the stirring rendition of North to Alaska."

RK

Heydrich · 07-20-2002, 07:43 PM

The Discovery Channel had a program on penguins once. It showed a large group of them frolicking on the rocky coastline of the Falklands, with what looked like tidal waves constantly crashing into them. They looked like they were having fun. God they are tough little bastards.

Herb · 07-20-2002, 08:04 PM

OK, so it's a French Pengle, but what is the average going price for one of these rare French Pengle marked Colts going for?

07-18-2002, 01:13 PM	#1
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	OT: USGI 1911A1 with German proofs I thought that some of you fellow collectors can help me with a gun I considering for purchase. It is a USGI Colt 1911A1 (government property stamped) in the 900,000 serial number range with matching numbered slide. The gun is refinished in dark blue and has the post war German E/N on the right slide. Under the slide release lever it has: Hege E/N KF and (antler proof) The barrel is also marked as with the E/N KF and(antler proof) Any ideas as to what this means? Value? Thanks!

07-18-2002, 01:53 PM	#2
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Recent Ulm proofs...[antler] HK is the year code. I am sure somone will decode it for us? [98?] Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

07-18-2002, 04:03 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,941 Thanks: 2,041 Thanked 4,547 Times in 2,100 Posts	The tracking down of the history of a gun is very interesting. Seeing that proof mark and wondering, hmmmmm?? Makes the hobby worthwhile when you figure it out. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-18-2002, 11:11 PM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Not being a collector of Colts I am wondering what a model 1911, made in 1918, in good condition would be worth, any idea? There is a stamp on the left side of the frame above the magazine release that looks like a penguin over S14? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-19-2002, 03:23 AM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	JP, not to disagree but that sucker sure looks like a penguin to me. You are correct about the # it is 344,973. Maybe the eagle heads looked like penguins back then, LOL. <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-18-2002, 02:03 PM	#3
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	Upon further inspection, the gun is not refinished but unissued with a dark coat of cosmoline over the parkerized finish.

07-18-2002, 03:37 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,696 Times in 556 Posts	Mark, just as in England, Germany requires unproofed guns that are to be sold on the civilian market to pass their proof houses. My 1927 Argentine Colt is also proofed in Germany, indicating that the Argentines sold the pistol to a German firm who, in turn, sold it to the US importer. Your GI 1911A1 may have been captured during the war and proofed only when it was privately sold. Or it may have been part of a larger consignment of guns imported for civilian sale. There's really no way of telling that I'm aware of.

07-18-2002, 03:52 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Germany used many surplus pistols in post war era for its police and army, yours is probably one of them. I had a Inglis Browing High Power arsenal refinished by them, beautiful gun. Markings I'm not sure of. Don't know if the markings are a + or - , here is one on auction, make your own judgement. I put $800 in an excellent Rem 1911A1 made in 1945. How much for yours? http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=2962740 RK

07-18-2002, 04:04 PM	#7
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Ed, wish my wife saw it that way. Check your email. Gotta be in an O club. RK

07-18-2002, 04:24 PM	#8
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	RK, Seller wants $1,800.00 for the gun. It is 100% unissued with dark cosmoline on the surface. Grips are very sharp. It is an early war gun since it has the matching serial number on the slide under the firing pin retainer. GHD initials in a line. I am begining to like the gun and may keep it. The pistol on autionarms is now at $1,500.00 with the reserve not met. The info about the gun sold to the civilian market makes sense. Anyone able to date code it for me? I do like digging into the history of our collectable guns, this is fun !! Mark

07-18-2002, 05:02 PM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Maybe somebody here will remember, about a year ago I posted a website that would provide the date of MFG on a US military firearm based on the SN. I've got to hang around here another hour or so, maybe I can find it. Price is out of my range and I'm a mongrel shooter guy anyway but it may not be unrealistic. RK Found it!The site http://oldguns.net on the very bottom of the main page will tell you the year of manufacture of US military firearms by entering the serial number. Click on the MAIN PAGE on the blue screen then scroll all the way down. Don't do it from here cause I couldn't get back without completely closing the system but that might be my problem.

07-18-2002, 05:54 PM	#10
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	Thanks, the gun was made in '43. A fellow collector e mailed me this.....Any gun legally owned by a German citizen must go through one of the German prrof houses where they are tested with loads from 1 1/2 times normal load to 3 times normal load. After passing test, they are proofed. The antler on your gun means that the gun was proofed at Ulm. This is the same proof house where all of the Walther manufactured guns are tested. Gun could have possibly been issued to post-war German police under US occupation.....

07-18-2002, 10:58 PM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Mark, Be wary of buying the pistol coated in cosmoline. The pistols were not originally packed in cosmoline, and it would have been thoroughly cleaned when proofed in Germany. The cosmoline would have to be added at some later date, and adds nothing to the pistol.

07-19-2002, 02:31 AM	#13
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, The mark you are seeing is an eagle head with the inspectors number under it. At approximately serial number 303,000 the practice of putting the initials of the Inspector of Ordnance for Springfield Armory assigned to the pistols manufacturer was changed to the eagle head with an inspectors number. The Inspector of Ordnance did not actually stamp each pistol, but was responsible for their production and acceptance for the government. The practice of using the eagle head with inspectors number continued until the end of production of the 1911 in early 1919. The pistols manufactured by Remington UMC will show both the initials of the Inspector of Ordnance and the eagle head as the engineering drawings designated where the initials were to go, and Remington complied.

07-19-2002, 11:35 AM	#15
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, It really is an eagle head and not the entire eagle.

07-19-2002, 12:38 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,941 Thanks: 2,041 Thanked 4,547 Times in 2,100 Posts	It does look like a penguin, but I don't think anyone chose a penguin for their proofs / markings [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-19-2002, 07:12 PM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Herb, Your Colt 1911 was probably shipped either June 21 or June 25, 1918 to the Ordnance Depot, Bush Terminal, Brooklyn, N.Y. This indicates that it probably was shipped to France for the US troops. The picture indicates that it has WWII plastic grips and a 1911A1 slide stop.

07-19-2002, 11:02 PM	#18
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Vikings used to use a crow frequently. Was a symbol of the scavenger of the battlefield, a sign of impending death. Penguins are tough critters, but threatening, nope. Can you imagine hearing the parade marshall announcing "next in line is the famous Penguin battalion, fearless, frostbit and frozen, waddling to the stirring rendition of North to Alaska." RK

07-20-2002, 07:43 PM	#19
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Discovery Channel had a program on penguins once. It showed a large group of them frolicking on the rocky coastline of the Falklands, with what looked like tidal waves constantly crashing into them. They looked like they were having fun. God they are tough little bastards.

07-20-2002, 08:04 PM	#20
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	OK, so it's a French Pengle, but what is the average going price for one of these rare French Pengle marked Colts going for? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull