Need good photos of dished toggles please

John F. · 08-11-2003, 07:45 PM

Hi, folks,
I am having a custom target Luger built out of a non-matching 1920 Commercial, with a 6" .30 Luger barrel. Since this is purely a fun project, I'd like to have the toggles machined to the early "dished" profile, as I find them more handsome than the later, flat, knurled style. Unfortunately, my gunsmith has no access to an original to use as a pattern, or good photos to guide him either. Could anyone here post good, close up photos of dished toggles from the side, top, front and rear, so he could get an idea of what he should be aiming for? Also, if any of our resident experts can recommend a specific cutter that would be good to replicate the dished toggle profile, that would be helpful! As this will be a shooter that will see a fair amount of use, if these cuts would reduce the longevity of the toggles, please advise and I'll reconsider. Thanks much for any help!

John Sabato · 08-12-2003, 02:49 PM

I am sure that I have several photos of dished toggles in my photo archive, but for you purposes I think it would be better if one of the members who owns a dished-toggle Luger could post some detailed photos...

If there is no response in a day or two I will try and search through the archive and see what I can come up with.

John F. · 08-12-2003, 11:17 PM

Thanks very much! Any help will be most appreciated! FWIW, the more detail from several angles, the better it will help my smith see how the cuts should be made and what the final profiles should look like. Thanks!!
John

Ron Wood · 08-13-2003, 12:00 AM

For starters, you might visit the Members Gallery. The album on the Robert Musgrave 1900 American Eagle Luger has several very good photos of both sides of the Luger as well as two bottom oblique views. My album called "Swiss Family" has a top oblique view of a 1900 Swiss. About the only view that is missing is a top down view.

If you have or can get your hands on a copy of Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" you should have all the reference photos your gunsmith could want.

By cutting down a standard toggle you can get a pretty good approximation of an original dished toggle. This is what Aimco did to create the commemorative 100th anniversary Luger for the 2000 NAPCA show. A little more work could be put into the knurling on the forward edges of the toggle knobs that would make them appear even more authentic than the Aimco pieces. I don't think dishing the toggles will hurt the strength or reliability of the Luger.

John F. · 08-13-2003, 02:21 AM

Thanks much for the good info!
John

Lugerdoc · 08-13-2003, 08:51 AM

John F, This project sounds expensive when I can sell your an original M1900 rear toggle link, less toggle lock, in the $75 to $100 range. TH

John F. · 08-13-2003, 09:10 AM

Hi, Lugerdoc,
THANKS! Email sent!
John

Thor · 08-13-2003, 09:44 AM

Lugerdoc, does this idea of using an original dish toggle change headspace at all? Is the coupling link a consideration? I assume he is going to use it with a coil mainspring. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 08-13-2003, 10:29 AM

Iirc, the old-model rear toggles were a bit different from the new model, particularly in the area where the machining at the back of the toggles themselves meet up with the receiver rails--regrettably I can't actually make the test right now.

Best check first, or hope someone here can, before you decide to go that route.

--Dwight

John F. · 08-13-2003, 02:52 PM

Thanks, all for the help! Looks like I will be using the original toggle assembly, re-machined to the dished profile after all, due to several factors. The photos on the member gallery, while helpful, don't show the type detail that would be most helpful to my 'smith, so if anyone is able to show true close-up photos and doesn't mind doing so, that would be most helpful. I will see if I can find a reference book also that has good photos of the type needed. Again, thanks all for the help!

08-11-2003, 07:45 PM	#1
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need good photos of dished toggles please Hi, folks, I am having a custom target Luger built out of a non-matching 1920 Commercial, with a 6" .30 Luger barrel. Since this is purely a fun project, I'd like to have the toggles machined to the early "dished" profile, as I find them more handsome than the later, flat, knurled style. Unfortunately, my gunsmith has no access to an original to use as a pattern, or good photos to guide him either. Could anyone here post good, close up photos of dished toggles from the side, top, front and rear, so he could get an idea of what he should be aiming for? Also, if any of our resident experts can recommend a specific cutter that would be good to replicate the dished toggle profile, that would be helpful! As this will be a shooter that will see a fair amount of use, if these cuts would reduce the longevity of the toggles, please advise and I'll reconsider. Thanks much for any help! __________________ John

08-12-2003, 02:49 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I am sure that I have several photos of dished toggles in my photo archive, but for you purposes I think it would be better if one of the members who owns a dished-toggle Luger could post some detailed photos... If there is no response in a day or two I will try and search through the archive and see what I can come up with. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2003, 11:17 PM	#3
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks very much! Any help will be most appreciated! FWIW, the more detail from several angles, the better it will help my smith see how the cuts should be made and what the final profiles should look like. Thanks!! John __________________ John

08-13-2003, 12:00 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	For starters, you might visit the Members Gallery. The album on the Robert Musgrave 1900 American Eagle Luger has several very good photos of both sides of the Luger as well as two bottom oblique views. My album called "Swiss Family" has a top oblique view of a 1900 Swiss. About the only view that is missing is a top down view. If you have or can get your hands on a copy of Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" you should have all the reference photos your gunsmith could want. By cutting down a standard toggle you can get a pretty good approximation of an original dished toggle. This is what Aimco did to create the commemorative 100th anniversary Luger for the 2000 NAPCA show. A little more work could be put into the knurling on the forward edges of the toggle knobs that would make them appear even more authentic than the Aimco pieces. I don't think dishing the toggles will hurt the strength or reliability of the Luger. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2003, 02:21 AM	#5
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks much for the good info! John __________________ John

08-13-2003, 08:51 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	John F, This project sounds expensive when I can sell your an original M1900 rear toggle link, less toggle lock, in the $75 to $100 range. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-13-2003, 09:10 AM	#7
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi, Lugerdoc, THANKS! Email sent! John __________________ John

08-13-2003, 09:44 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Lugerdoc, does this idea of using an original dish toggle change headspace at all? Is the coupling link a consideration? I assume he is going to use it with a coil mainspring. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-13-2003, 10:29 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Iirc, the old-model rear toggles were a bit different from the new model, particularly in the area where the machining at the back of the toggles themselves meet up with the receiver rails--regrettably I can't actually make the test right now. Best check first, or hope someone here can, before you decide to go that route. --Dwight

08-13-2003, 02:52 PM	#10
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, all for the help! Looks like I will be using the original toggle assembly, re-machined to the dished profile after all, due to several factors. The photos on the member gallery, while helpful, don't show the type detail that would be most helpful to my 'smith, so if anyone is able to show true close-up photos and doesn't mind doing so, that would be most helpful. I will see if I can find a reference book also that has good photos of the type needed. Again, thanks all for the help! __________________ John