Holzattrappe

mauro · 07-24-2003, 05:20 PM

Hello guys,
please find here few picture of this interesting item I have recently bought. It is a Holzattrappe: a wood item used for holster maintaining. This item was officially used by German Army during both WWI and WWII. The only book were I have saw a description of this item is the Gortz book.
I have added also few picture from this very good book.

The Holzattrappe has the following mark:

1/N.6.

Have you any idea about the mining of this mark?

Let me know your opinion.

Ciao

Gortz pictures:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...appe-gortz.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...ppe-gortz1.jpg

My pictures:

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz1-int.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz3-int.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz4-int.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz5-int.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz6-int.jpg

lugerholsterrepair · 07-24-2003, 05:36 PM

Mauro, Interesting but I cannot emagine what it's purpose is. If it is to keep the shape of the holster while in storage it would seem a wad of paper would suffice...Any ideas? Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 07-24-2003, 09:36 PM

A couple of possibilities come to mind. "Wet" forming of a crushed/deformed holster or stretching a tight holster. It also might preclude crushing if holsters were tighly packed or stowed with other gear.

The description calls this item a "wood mockup" and indicates it "seperates" and is a "spacer". Kind of makes me think it is a shoe tree for a holster.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-24-2003, 11:42 PM

Ron, I entirely agree with the reasons you give as far as the shoe tree aspect but it seems quite a bit of fabrication for such a simple solution.

As far as the idea of wet forming I have to wonder...This form is not enough of a match to a holster body to form it back to what it needs to be..I wet form holsters all the time when I make them and a form of this nature would leave one strange holster body! To accurately re-form an existing body it would be unwise to wet it enough to form it. It could shrink excessively if not dried properly and the stitching could bunch up.

I don't think the thing could be used effectively for stretching either. The only portion it could possibly stretch would be where the butt handle is. The rod type barell on it would have little or no effect.

On the flip side I have made several of these for fitting purposes when making baby Luger holsters. I take the measurements sent to me by the owner and carve the wood pistol to the proper size so that when I am making the holster I have a representative pistol to fit into the holster as I am producing it. Helps me a great deal to have a sample pistol and prevents clients from having to ship their pistol all over the country.

I cannot emagine this being the use for this wooden pistol as the Germans must have provided a Luger for this purpose to saddlers making holsters. Some people have theorized that the aluminum models were for this purpose but I have never found anything to substantiate it. Interesting to speculate though! Jerry Burney

Pete Ebbink · 07-25-2003, 09:44 AM

Hey...maybe a training aid for holstering/unholstering...for the smart soldier that saw the luger's future collection value and did not want to add holster wear marks...(?)...just kidding, of course...

Thanks, Mauro...for your posting. I did not know such item(s) existed...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-25-2003, 10:08 AM

I tend to agree with Jerry's speculation that it might be a form used during holster fabrication. No need to have a real gun lying around in a leather shop... someone might run off with it when no one is looking... or maybe even load it...

So what would we call it in English... how about a GO or No-GO gauge for a Luger holster?

If it goes in the holster then it doesn't have to be stretched or shaped any further... but if it doesn't then the holster get's chucked into the scrap parts pile...

Whatyathink?

mauro · 07-25-2003, 06:14 PM

Do you have any idea about the meaning of the mark?

Roadkill · 07-25-2003, 06:26 PM

The part that interests me is the unit and weapon designation on the item in the book, why would that be on a tool for forming/maintenance of a holster?

rk

John Sabato · 07-25-2003, 07:22 PM

Well... the Alta-Vista translator

(being that I am 50 miles from my German dictionary) translates "holzattrappe" as "wood mockup"

Unless we find a published reference... I guess we will just have to lean on intelligent speculation... it sure has been fun so far

Anybody else seen anything like these mockups?

Ron Wood · 07-25-2003, 07:38 PM

Mauro,
The 1/N.6. is not an Imperial era format, which leads me to believe it may be Weimar, possibly police. Other than that, I have no idea.

John Sabato · 07-25-2003, 07:42 PM

Ron, here is a humorous speculation for you... based on your observation about this being possibly a police item... this is the gun that the police were given to carry in their holsters while their Lugers were out having the sear safety installed so they wouldn't shoot themselves with the sideplate removed...

(Guess I have entirely too much time on my hands this afternoon...)

Ya'll have a nice weekend...

Ron Wood · 07-25-2003, 08:01 PM

Kind of like Barney (Don Knotts) on the old Andy Griffith show who was only issued one bullet and he had to carry it in his pocket. And yes, apparently you do have a bit of excess time on your hands today.

A good weekend right back atcha! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

mauro · 07-25-2003, 10:49 PM

John,
may be you are right!!!
Actually I believe this item was made in the Weimar era or during WWII. According to Gortz, the production of this tool have followed all production of P08. Gortz suggests, also the hypothesis of maintaining the holster shape, the hypothesis that this item was used by soldier during formal services were the real pistol was not necessary. Actually this item is less heavy than the real pistol. I guess this hypothesis not so realistic.
If you look at the purchase order I have added in the picture you could see that the Truppenwaffenmeister received this kind of tool.
Have you any idea about the scope of the Truppenwaffenmeister? Are them in charge of maintaining guns and accessories?

Ciao

John Sabato · 07-25-2003, 11:58 PM

Mauro, That is what the name "Truppenwaffenmeister " translates for me...

"Troop arms master" or more commonly armorer... the unit member charged with the responsibility for weapon maintenance above the individual level... like parts replacement and shipment to a depot for major repairs.

Ciao!

Jan Balcar · 07-26-2003, 11:16 AM

When I served in (Czech) army the some officers bears in holster (in watchservice too...!)the folded newspaper instead a service pistol to spare weight and preserve the former shape of holster.

Holzatrappe means wooden dummy or wooden imitation. The word Atrappe was in Germany used for example for wooden salami for display in shopwindow.

In Sweden army was in use a similar non pistol, made from metal for exercise purposes.

Maybe was the Holzatrappe purpose to disburden officers distressful destiny.....

pisto · 07-26-2003, 10:50 PM

I agree with Jan Balcars hypotesis. The Holzatrappe is for a soldiers service, when he donÃ?Â´t needs really a real pistol in his holster. It is much mor comfortable and not so heavy at all, and he donÃ?Â´t have to watch his gun all the time as it would be with a real Luger.
Why the Waffenmeiser have had that pice of wood? probably to know how to duplicate it?
here is a picture of one I purchased recently - much more different and probably not in military use - but interesting...

[IMG]

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2003, 11:39 PM

These guys could very well be right. We used plastic and I have seen metal Colts 1911's, M-16's, and the shotgun that are used and have been for years in the US Military for training, for issuing to personnel in training companies that are "practicing" or on exercises.

Ed

ViggoG · 07-27-2003, 01:52 AM

I've seen no mention of the "German Youth Camps".
Perhaps they were used for Firearms Training.
just a guess ?
I do remember that here in the beginning of both
WW-1 & WW-2, Wooden rifles were used in "Basic Training", until sufficient 1903 Springfields could be manufactured.
Also the WW-2 British Homeguard was issued or made their own wooden replicas until the were supplied with donated firearms from the USA and Canada.
ViggoG

07-24-2003, 05:20 PM	#1
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Holzattrappe Hello guys, please find here few picture of this interesting item I have recently bought. It is a Holzattrappe: a wood item used for holster maintaining. This item was officially used by German Army during both WWI and WWII. The only book were I have saw a description of this item is the Gortz book. I have added also few picture from this very good book. The Holzattrappe has the following mark: 1/N.6. Have you any idea about the mining of this mark? Let me know your opinion. Ciao Gortz pictures: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...appe-gortz.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...ppe-gortz1.jpg My pictures: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz1-int.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz3-int.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz4-int.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz5-int.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Holz6-int.jpg __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-24-2003, 05:36 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Mauro, Interesting but I cannot emagine what it's purpose is. If it is to keep the shape of the holster while in storage it would seem a wad of paper would suffice...Any ideas? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-24-2003, 09:36 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	A couple of possibilities come to mind. "Wet" forming of a crushed/deformed holster or stretching a tight holster. It also might preclude crushing if holsters were tighly packed or stowed with other gear. The description calls this item a "wood mockup" and indicates it "seperates" and is a "spacer". Kind of makes me think it is a shoe tree for a holster. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-24-2003, 11:42 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Ron, I entirely agree with the reasons you give as far as the shoe tree aspect but it seems quite a bit of fabrication for such a simple solution. As far as the idea of wet forming I have to wonder...This form is not enough of a match to a holster body to form it back to what it needs to be..I wet form holsters all the time when I make them and a form of this nature would leave one strange holster body! To accurately re-form an existing body it would be unwise to wet it enough to form it. It could shrink excessively if not dried properly and the stitching could bunch up. I don't think the thing could be used effectively for stretching either. The only portion it could possibly stretch would be where the butt handle is. The rod type barell on it would have little or no effect. On the flip side I have made several of these for fitting purposes when making baby Luger holsters. I take the measurements sent to me by the owner and carve the wood pistol to the proper size so that when I am making the holster I have a representative pistol to fit into the holster as I am producing it. Helps me a great deal to have a sample pistol and prevents clients from having to ship their pistol all over the country. I cannot emagine this being the use for this wooden pistol as the Germans must have provided a Luger for this purpose to saddlers making holsters. Some people have theorized that the aluminum models were for this purpose but I have never found anything to substantiate it. Interesting to speculate though! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-25-2003, 10:08 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I tend to agree with Jerry's speculation that it might be a form used during holster fabrication. No need to have a real gun lying around in a leather shop... someone might run off with it when no one is looking... or maybe even load it... So what would we call it in English... how about a GO or No-GO gauge for a Luger holster? If it goes in the holster then it doesn't have to be stretched or shaped any further... but if it doesn't then the holster get's chucked into the scrap parts pile... Whatyathink? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-25-2003, 09:44 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey...maybe a training aid for holstering/unholstering...for the smart soldier that saw the luger's future collection value and did not want to add holster wear marks...(?)...just kidding, of course... Thanks, Mauro...for your posting. I did not know such item(s) existed... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-25-2003, 06:14 PM	#7
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Do you have any idea about the meaning of the mark? __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-25-2003, 06:26 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	The part that interests me is the unit and weapon designation on the item in the book, why would that be on a tool for forming/maintenance of a holster? rk

07-25-2003, 07:22 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Well... the Alta-Vista translator (being that I am 50 miles from my German dictionary) translates "holzattrappe" as "wood mockup" Unless we find a published reference... I guess we will just have to lean on intelligent speculation... it sure has been fun so far Anybody else seen anything like these mockups? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-25-2003, 07:38 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Mauro, The 1/N.6. is not an Imperial era format, which leads me to believe it may be Weimar, possibly police. Other than that, I have no idea. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-25-2003, 07:42 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Ron, here is a humorous speculation for you... based on your observation about this being possibly a police item... this is the gun that the police were given to carry in their holsters while their Lugers were out having the sear safety installed so they wouldn't shoot themselves with the sideplate removed... (Guess I have entirely too much time on my hands this afternoon...) Ya'll have a nice weekend... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-25-2003, 08:01 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	Kind of like Barney (Don Knotts) on the old Andy Griffith show who was only issued one bullet and he had to carry it in his pocket. And yes, apparently you do have a bit of excess time on your hands today. A good weekend right back atcha! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-25-2003, 10:49 PM	#13
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	John, may be you are right!!! Actually I believe this item was made in the Weimar era or during WWII. According to Gortz, the production of this tool have followed all production of P08. Gortz suggests, also the hypothesis of maintaining the holster shape, the hypothesis that this item was used by soldier during formal services were the real pistol was not necessary. Actually this item is less heavy than the real pistol. I guess this hypothesis not so realistic. If you look at the purchase order I have added in the picture you could see that the Truppenwaffenmeister received this kind of tool. Have you any idea about the scope of the Truppenwaffenmeister? Are them in charge of maintaining guns and accessories? Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-25-2003, 11:58 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Mauro, That is what the name "Truppenwaffenmeister " translates for me... "Troop arms master" or more commonly armorer... the unit member charged with the responsibility for weapon maintenance above the individual level... like parts replacement and shipment to a depot for major repairs. Ciao! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-26-2003, 11:16 AM	#15
Jan Balcar User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Czech Republic, Europe Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When I served in (Czech) army the some officers bears in holster (in watchservice too...!)the folded newspaper instead a service pistol to spare weight and preserve the former shape of holster. Holzatrappe means wooden dummy or wooden imitation. The word Atrappe was in Germany used for example for wooden salami for display in shopwindow. In Sweden army was in use a similar non pistol, made from metal for exercise purposes. Maybe was the Holzatrappe purpose to disburden officers distressful destiny..... __________________ hoba

07-26-2003, 10:50 PM	#16
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with Jan Balcars hypotesis. The Holzatrappe is for a soldiers service, when he donÃ?Â´t needs really a real pistol in his holster. It is much mor comfortable and not so heavy at all, and he donÃ?Â´t have to watch his gun all the time as it would be with a real Luger. Why the Waffenmeiser have had that pice of wood? probably to know how to duplicate it? here is a picture of one I purchased recently - much more different and probably not in military use - but interesting... [IMG]

07-26-2003, 11:39 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	These guys could very well be right. We used plastic and I have seen metal Colts 1911's, M-16's, and the shotgun that are used and have been for years in the US Military for training, for issuing to personnel in training companies that are "practicing" or on exercises. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-27-2003, 01:52 AM	#18
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I've seen no mention of the "German Youth Camps". Perhaps they were used for Firearms Training. just a guess ? I do remember that here in the beginning of both WW-1 & WW-2, Wooden rifles were used in "Basic Training", until sufficient 1903 Springfields could be manufactured. Also the WW-2 British Homeguard was issued or made their own wooden replicas until the were supplied with donated firearms from the USA and Canada. ViggoG