So You Experts Think You Know It All!!

[Heinmot]

Well, I think maybe you do!!

Reading a few posts on functioning problems, I followed the advice of a few of you and took the "Ã??ber-Jammer" out and tested it.

Loaded one round in the mag, racked the Kniegelenk and fired.

Kniegelenk REFUSED to lock back!!

Ach du lieber! So the mags maybe weren't the only problem!! And I haven't even got the new springs yet...

I was using 115 grain Sellier & Bellot FMJ's and Win USA factory fodder.

NEITHER held the toggle back!

I think the power level of this ammo just isn't stiff enough to operate the action!! So where to go now??

1} Is 9mm Plus P acceptable in the Luger??

2} How do I disassemble a Luger mag to repace the spring?

I will triumph over this thing yet!!

"Ã??ber-Jammer" nicht Ã??ber alles!!

[Ron Wood]

I hate to mention something so simple, but are you keeping a very firm wrist? A lot of the time if a Luger doesn't have something solid to recoil against, it doesn't behave well.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Is the Luger in question the one that was plated with something? If so, I wouldn't expect any kind of functionality out of it until you get it put back in spec. (have all the crap (Kot)removed and the pistol properly refit and refinished).

Lugers were made to very tight (handfit) specs, so plating of any kind would naturally ball-up everything.

You may even consider buying another Luger that has not been so abused, if you really want to shoot on a regular basis.

Sieger

PS: Katzenjammer uber alles!!!

[Big Norm]

I am new to this discussion so if I am repeating something that has been said before, please excuse me.
Some Lugers don't have hold opens. They were added to the military Lugers in late 1913. Field strip your Luger and look inside the frame to see if you have one. If one is there, stick your pinky finger inside to see if the hold open is free to move around. Put your empty magazine into the gun and see if it actually moves the hold open. It might not be a bad idea to remove the hold open and spring and clean them and the slot that it fits into. These guns are quite old and dirt and old oil does accumulate. The hold open is easy to remove. Just slide it to the rear of the gun but don't bend the spring too much. Just enough to remove this assembly. if you remove the hold open, examine it for breakage or cracks.
I have found that some new commercial springs for the hold open have a gauge of wire that is too thick for the hold open. Don't let a gunsmith talk you into grinding the hold open more to allow the new spring to fit into its slot.
From previous discussions on magazines, I have learned that some old original magazines had trouble moving the hold open on the last shell. If you have a new commercial magazine, then this should not be a problem.
If ammo was a problem, then you would have other problems too. Problems like 'stove piping' where the shell casing would not fully eject and the casing would hang up between the toggle and the barrel and it would look like a stove pipe sticking up out of the gun.
A faulty main spring in the grip on the Luger may be the problem if your problem is consistant a. The main spring is a pretty strong spring and should not be a problem. But these guns are old so it could be a consideration. Problems like 'stove piping' and the toggle not closing all the way could indicate a bad main spring.
Commercial ammo does not have the quality that some people expect that it should have. But you have tried different ammo and gotten the same results, then you have pretty much removed ammo as the source of your problems.
Examine the rear of the bore and the cone. Maybe a good cleaning and examination might explain something. If the rear of the bore in corroded or dirty, then the toggle might be lossing energy by having the spent casing slightly stuck in there. This is a regular problem in my 742 Remington deer rifle.
I would start the process by closely examining the ejector, its spring and how the mag makes it all function. The button on the mag has got to push that assembly up. Don't go buying a whole bunch of stuff until you closely watch how that works.Maybe just a little cleaning and some silicone spray will solve your problem.
Of course, this is assuming that your Luger is an 'all matching' Luger and not some put together miss matched shooter. If your gun is a miss match, then there is no telling what someone else put into it.
Big Norm

[Vlim]

Heinmot,

I believe we discussed this earlier. Try removing the holdopen and fire some rounds without it. If the gun now functions reliably, you've got your culprit.

115gr. S&B must be able to work the toggle, as it's one of the more spicy loads, so I tend towards the ammo not being the main source of your problem.

My money is still on the holdopen. Is the pistol chromed/nickeled inside? This may have caused the holdopen to rest just a tad too high.

[Heinmot]

OK:

Thanks for all your input. I am determined to fix this thing, but not successful so far.

First, limp-wristing should not be a problem, unless the gun needs to be backed up against a brick wall to function properly. I'm intentionally using a hard hold to eliminate that variable.

Second: Yes, the gun is nickel-plated. I have wondered about the effects of that myself. As with most plating, it COULD be a problem, but short of having the pistol refinished {which I might do} there is really nothing I can do about it. I do not want to modify the gun to accomadate the plating, tho, since it is all-matching and under the plating appears to be in super exc++ surface condition. If anything, I'd rather have it refinished than to file, polish or otherwise alter it due to plating buildup.

Here's what happens:

With an empty magazine, the toggle WILL lock back, tho it does feel a bit tight just before lockup occurs {plating issue...?}. Please note, however: I do NOT have any other Luger experience, so this slight increase in tightness could be normal with a Luger as the toggle assembly reaches the farthest point back as it compresses the mainspring.

The problem is that with a full magazine, or with multiple rounds loaded in a magazine, almost every other loaded round will jam. The result is typically that the bullet is left sticking out the top of the ejection port. Fired case ejects with strength, speed and consistent distance.

THEN, when I load a single round in the magazine {new Mec-Gar with original spring}, rack the toggle and fire, the round will fire, eject cleanly BUT the toggle will NOT lock back, indicating that the bolt face may not be reaching far enough back to contact the case head on the way back into battery.

Finally, the inside of the gun is spotless, and for the most part not PLATED. In fact, it appears to be evenly blued. The plating itself appears to be very well executed.

The HOLDOPEN itself is totally free to move up and down in its slot. There is no binding whatsoever. The spring tension exists, but there is no grittiness or hesitation in its function, and the slot is totally clean.

I'm leaning toward a combination of the need for a stiffer recoiling ammo and a heavier mag spring; the ammo to drive back the toggle, and the spring to make sure the next cartridge in line is in proper position to be stripped from the mag and chambered.

Any other ideas?

[Heinmot]

UPDATE:

OK, I REMOVED THE HOLDOPEN, TOOK THE CRITTER INTO THE BACK YARD AND TESTED IT.

OF 7 ROUNDS OF WINCHESTER 115 TARGET/RANGE, I GOT ONE FAILURE TO FEED {BOLT RIDEOVER, FULL BOLT CLOSURE, EMPTY CHAMBER}.

WITH 115 S&B, I QUIT AFTER 4 ROUNDS. GOT THE SAME-OLD SAME-OLD; BULLET STICKING OUT THE TOP, FAILURE TO FEED, ETC.

SO THE HOLDOPEN DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE THE PROBLEM. S&B AMMO DOES SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM, AND MAG SPRING MAY BE AN ISSUE ALSO.

DOES THIS SOUND CORRECT???

I'M THINKING I'M GONNA TRY SOME STANDARD PRESSURE 147'S FOR SOME INCREASED RECOIL IMPULSE, AND/OR +P 124'S...

[John Sabato]

Okay... let's eliminate the the first issue... the tightness...

take the upper assembly off. remove the sear bar and spring, and the reinstall the assembled toggle. It should be a SMOOTH fit and traverse the length of the upper receiver groove with no binding. If it binds at all, find it and eliminate it. How? a minute amount of the finest and softest valve grinding compound you can buy in the grooves and then lap it until the it IS smooth... The gun is worthless if it won't function. If you keep the compound in the grooves and don't get sloppy, it shouldn't affect the appearance much, if at all. Clean thoroughly and lubricate with breakfree.

Test fire... Work without jamming? Yes?
Next issue locking open on the last shot.

With the upper half and the magazine removed, remove the right grip and insert the magazine... does the follower button engage the holdopen with sufficient force to push it up? Yes? then try the same thing with the right grip reinstalled. Does it still come up as far as it did before? NO? create enough grip clearance for the follower button to do it's job... Yes? Next step.

If everything is clean and lubricated, then load one round into the magazine and fire it. Holdopen work? Yes, then no more problems... try it with a full mag.

No? Then either the ammo is too soft on recoil (change ammo- try Winchester 115 gr. ball ammo available at most Wal-marts for about $11.00 a box). Does it work now? then we are done. Still not working? probably an inadequate magazine spring. Change mags and try the whole series of test over again ...

let us know what happens.

[Heinmot]

John Sabato:

Thanks.

'Will do the whole series and report back.

...no wonder why the Jerries lost the Big Wars...

[Heinmot]

WELL, I DID THE WHOLE SERIES. HERE'S THE REPORT:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">
take the upper assembly off. remove the sear bar and spring, and the reinstall the assembled toggle. It should be a SMOOTH fit

YES, VERY SMOOTH.

Test fire... Work without jamming?

JAMS.

Next issue locking open on the last shot.

With the upper half and the magazine removed, remove the right grip and insert the magazine... does the follower button engage the holdopen with sufficient force to push it up?

NO PROBLEM THERE. HOLDOPEN WORKS FINE.

If everything is clean and lubricated, then load one round into the magazine and fire it. Holdopen work?

NO. HOLDOPEN WILL NOT WORK NOW.

Then either the ammo is too soft on recoil (change ammo- try Winchester 115 gr. ball ammo available at most Wal-marts for about $11.00 a box).

TRIED THIS AMMO. NO, IT DOES NOT WORK.

Still not working? probably an inadequate magazine spring.

MAG SPRING SHOULDN'T EFFECT DISTANCE THE BOLT RECOILS. I'LL TRY HARDER-RECOILING AMMO TO INCREASE BOLT TRAVEL AND HARDER MAG SPRING FOR THE AMMO FEED.

let us know what happens.

WILDO. A REALLY ODD DEAL, REALLY. THE CONDITION OF THIS PISTOL IS EXCELLENT, AND FIT OF PARTS APPEARS EXCELLENT AS WELL. WHY IT WON'T COMPLY IS A MYSTERY. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

I AM BEGINNING TO WONDER IF A WEAKER MAINSPRING WOULD DO THE TRICK...
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[John Sabato]

With the top half removed, Does the holdopen get raised when inserting an empty magazine after re-installing the right grip? I didn't see an answer to that question.

If it doesn't then the right grip may be pressing on the mag follower button and dragging causing jams and holdopen failures. Try firing without the right grip installed if this is the case and see if it still jams.

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

My Mec-Gar would not hold the action open after the last shot. I put a spring from GT in it. I hope to know Friday if that improves things. My gun functioned fine with my Swiss mag and a 70's Mauser mag. I would suspect the magazine...

[Lugerdoc]

Heinmot, Since you've tried about everything else except the recoil spring replacement, that may be your answer. But first try replaceing the "S" shaped link between your toggle assy and the recoil spring assy, as it may be out of spec. If you give up and want profession assistance, let me know. TH

[unspellable]

Is it the original recoil spring. On opening up a bunch of other wise fairly decent shooter Lugers I found an unholy assortment of non-original recoil springs. It's my experience that if the recoil spring is wrong, it's because somebody has been messing with it, not that it's an original spring that's out of spec.

[Waschbaer]

I had an aquaintance with similar problems. He asked me to try it out and tell him what I thought. He was using some of the highest power ammo safe to use, still getting misfeeds. First off, if the gun is EJECTING with no problems, your ammo is sufficiently powerful. The bolt is indeed traveling to its furthest possible extent, for otherwise the spent cases will not eject at all. As in your gun, the gun I inspected was not FEEDING properly. The first thing I did was to take apart the grips, et cetera as suggested above. The only thing I could think of was the magazine. However, it was NOT a spring problem. I have the original magazine for my luger, and it functions flawlessly with any ammunition, including hollowpoints (a rare quality in a luger). after lining the two mags up exactly, I noticed an anomaly. His magazine held the cartridges in a different position. The difference was almost too little to notice, but I reshaped his mag feed lips until the cartiges fit exactly the same. This solved the problem. The gun went from misfeeding every other round to one misfeed in sixty seven rounds. This with handloads and hollowpoints. Inspect your mag carefully, see if this helps. Concerning the hold open: the catch engages in a shallow cutout on the bottom of the bolt, not on the face as with some automatics. If this notch is rounded at all, or if the hold open catch is rounded on its rear edge, it will jerk out of place with the power of recoil. Hope this helps.

[Thor]

Thomas, where abouts in NM do you live? I live in Rio Rancho, just on the north edge of Albuquerque.

[Waschbaer]

Thor, I live down in sunny Las Cruces. Tell me, what might it run to have you saw the barrel off of my c96, thread the receiver, and replace it with a 16.25 inch 9mm parabellum barrel? I'm also considering otherwise modifying the gun as a carbine (id est stocks, magazine extension, et cetera). If I make the necessary modifications to the frame, can you make a nice forearm out of a relatively inexpensive but attractive piece of wood? I'd probably also need a matching shoulder stock. Or, if I decide that it is too much of a pain in the rear to "carbinize" the gun, what would it cost to just reline the existing barrel to 9mm para, modify the rear sight to 9mm specs, and refinish the ol' bugger. She's a might abused.

[Ron Wood]

Waschb�¤r,
Greetings "raccoon", we live right next door to each other relatively speaking. Out in this neck of the desert, 40 miles is nothing. I am sure Ted can work wonders on your tired old C96. I saw your other post on trying to locate a "junker" Luger. Good luck finding something in this area. Unless it is a Colt, Winchester, S&W or possibly a Ruger, there isn't much interest. Believe me, I have spent the last 25 years here and haven't found much since the '80s. Good luck.