1940 "42" Luger, Could you ID mark?

Tony S. · 12-30-2003, 05:58 PM

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_mark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_mark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Can anyone tell me what the proof mark to the right of the Eagle is? This mark is from a 1940 "42" Luger. I looked throughout my books, but I could not find it. I saw similar markings, but must of them were in reference to Lugers issued to the Police.
Thanks, Tony

Herb · 12-30-2003, 06:38 PM

That appears to be the proof of the Heers Polizei, but it is usually found on holsters, I can't find a reference to it being on a Luger barrel.

Edward Tinker · 12-30-2003, 09:42 PM

I lightened the photo a bit and it shows up a really nice eagle

Dwight Gruber · 12-30-2003, 10:21 PM

Costanzo (pp 144, 156) notes this mark in this position and says that it "reportedly" represents end of production run.

--Dwight

MauserLugers · 12-30-2003, 10:41 PM

There is disagreement as to what the mark stands for, but I was always told it was a barrel hardness test. -- Bill

RockinWR · 12-31-2003, 01:13 AM

Bill/Dwight,
* Agree on the disagreement statement; but, the asterisk appears on K98k receivers and reportedly on bayonets.
* Jan Balcar recently responded to a post on this mark on Jan Stiil's Forum relative to its frequent appearance on various parts of Spreewerk P.38's. Paraphrasing his statement: "It means a part which could be returned to acceptable use by rework." He states this was confirmed by a couple of original Spreewerk workers.
* As I have a P.38, E/88 accepted magazine body with the asterisk on it, I'll lean toward Jan's latest explanation rather than believe it was a barrel hardness test mark.
* Certainly Mauser may have had a different meaning; but, with the wide variety of manufacturers we see using this mark, I wonder if this was not a standard symbol adopted across European gunmakers.
* Maybe Jan B. can weigh in to confirm when & from whom this was heard. A period document would be even better for this confounding little conundrum.
Respectfully,
Bob

Mike Fitz · 12-31-2003, 01:43 AM

Jan Still,s Volume III Third Reich Lugers shows a 1940 Code 42 with the same "asterisk" on Page 67.
Other then calling it an asterisk no other explanation is given.

Mike

ViggoG · 12-31-2003, 03:02 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I apologise in advance for the lack of brevity.
>>>
Lets us not accept the "Asterisk" like mark as a hardness test !
The Germans were and are very advanced in the art of Materials Testing would never have applied a complex figure as a hardness testing penetrator form !
Several things will forever dispense of this false assumption that they used complex shapes for their their penetrators in hardness testing.
>>>
The Hardness test is based upon the depth of penetration of a shape that is easily described mathematically, and is progressive in its displacement of material with increased depth of penetration .
Various attempts were made with points of spherical, conical and diamond shaped penetrators of various angles and with a variety of controlled bluntness applied to the extreme point.
It was found that the majority of tests could best performed with the spherical forms of the Brinell type tests and the Ball and Cone shapes of the Rockwell tests.
>>>
I quote from The 16 th Edition of Machinery's
Handbook as follows;
"Rockwell Hardness Test-- The Rockwell hardness tester is essentially a machine that measures hardness by determining the depth of penetration of a penetrator into a specimen under certain fixed conditions of test. The penetrator may be either a steel ball or a diamond sphero-conical penetrator. The hardness number is related to the depth of indentation and the number is higher the harder the material."
>>>
The Vickers test is similar in application however the penetrator is a Square Based 135 deg
diamond pyramid shape.
>>>
Brinell tests are performed with a ball type penetrator and are determined by the following Formula, (a simple Example of the Formula)
>>>
load on indenting tool in kilograms
-------------------------------------- = Brinell Hardness Number
surface area of indentation in sq. mm.
>>>
As can be seen the Rockwell test is a measure of controlled penetration and the Brinell test is a measure of the area of a controlled indentation.
>>>
As can easily be seen by the nature of the formula, the penetrator point must be easily described mathematically, in both cases, or the calculation becomes overwhelming in complexity and therefor useless for production inspection!
>>>
In general These tests will appear as from 1 -3 penetrations in a small area, Brinell tests would most likely never appear on WW-1 and WW-2 weapons.
The most likely test would be the Rockwell type tests of from 1 -3 conical indentations taken within a 1/4" diameter area.
And then seldom appearing on any but a very rare few possibly one in a hundred or more parts at the discretion of the inspection department.
Thank you for your patience!
ViggoG

MauserLugers · 12-31-2003, 06:33 PM

Bob,
Please explain what this means as I really have no idea.

"It means a part which could be returned to acceptable use by rework."

Does this mean that Mauser was reworking parts on their military contracts? Why only the barrel? Why is the asterisk spread out randomly one to several hundred instead of consecutively marked? What is the connection between a Mauser Luger barrel marked with an asterisk in 1940 and a asterisk marked P.38 of 1941 from a different manufacture?

ViggoG,
Why is it not possible that Mauser had there own unique test that they (Mauser) used to randomly test/check/inspect/ Luger barrels for whatever reason they deemed necessary? Hardness, assembly, quality, whatever, that again was a random check/test that was unique to only Mauser Luger barrels? To my knowledge this asterisk is only found on Mauser Luger barrels randomly starting in mid to late 1940 and continues very sparsely through the byf 42's, with it not being found on any other Luger parts.

I realize all of us have different opinions, and mine being that these are not marks of a reworked barrel, but of some sort of randomly done unique check/test of only the barrel. -- Set me straight -- Bill

ViggoG · 01-01-2004, 12:23 AM

Bill,
I have not addressed the asterisk like mark to describe it in any other application than as a penetrator point shape as explained above, and I forcefully state;
"Lets us not accept the "Asterisk" like mark as a hardness test !, Its use, as such, is most impractical and above all else the German weapons producers were not that!
>>>
The Germans were and are very advanced in the art of Materials Testing would never have applied a complex figure as a hardness testing penetrator form !
Several things will forever dispense of this false assumption that they used complex shapes for their their penetrators in hardness testing."
???
I have no opinion nor do I forward any theory as far as its use for other purposes may be concerned.
My knowledge on the subject is purely from an Engineering or Technical Viewpoint.
I leave conjecture on this subject to others !
I wish you every success in finding its true meaning.
ViggoG

Marvin · 01-02-2004, 08:35 AM

Well, it has been a long time since I posted, but I wanted to jump into this one with a little more information.

The "astrisk" was also stamped on other type ordnance items in addition to handguns, bayonets, rifles, etc. There has been no definitive answer to what it means. All the meanings so far are a hypothesis with no documentation to back up the true meaning.

Marvin

12-30-2003, 05:58 PM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1940 "42" Luger, Could you ID mark? <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_mark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_mark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Can anyone tell me what the proof mark to the right of the Eagle is? This mark is from a 1940 "42" Luger. I looked throughout my books, but I could not find it. I saw similar markings, but must of them were in reference to Lugers issued to the Police. Thanks, Tony

12-30-2003, 06:38 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That appears to be the proof of the Heers Polizei, but it is usually found on holsters, I can't find a reference to it being on a Luger barrel. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

12-30-2003, 09:42 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	I lightened the photo a bit and it shows up a really nice eagle __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-30-2003, 10:21 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Costanzo (pp 144, 156) notes this mark in this position and says that it "reportedly" represents end of production run. --Dwight

12-30-2003, 10:41 PM	#5
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	There is disagreement as to what the mark stands for, but I was always told it was a barrel hardness test. -- Bill

12-31-2003, 01:13 AM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Bill/Dwight, * Agree on the disagreement statement; but, the asterisk appears on K98k receivers and reportedly on bayonets. * Jan Balcar recently responded to a post on this mark on Jan Stiil's Forum relative to its frequent appearance on various parts of Spreewerk P.38's. Paraphrasing his statement: "It means a part which could be returned to acceptable use by rework." He states this was confirmed by a couple of original Spreewerk workers. * As I have a P.38, E/88 accepted magazine body with the asterisk on it, I'll lean toward Jan's latest explanation rather than believe it was a barrel hardness test mark. * Certainly Mauser may have had a different meaning; but, with the wide variety of manufacturers we see using this mark, I wonder if this was not a standard symbol adopted across European gunmakers. * Maybe Jan B. can weigh in to confirm when & from whom this was heard. A period document would be even better for this confounding little conundrum. Respectfully, Bob

12-31-2003, 01:43 AM	#7
Mike Fitz User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Leonia, NJ Posts: 79 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jan Still,s Volume III Third Reich Lugers shows a 1940 Code 42 with the same "asterisk" on Page 67. Other then calling it an asterisk no other explanation is given. Mike

12-31-2003, 03:02 AM	#8
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ladies and Gentlemen, I apologise in advance for the lack of brevity. >>> Lets us not accept the "Asterisk" like mark as a hardness test ! The Germans were and are very advanced in the art of Materials Testing would never have applied a complex figure as a hardness testing penetrator form ! Several things will forever dispense of this false assumption that they used complex shapes for their their penetrators in hardness testing. >>> The Hardness test is based upon the depth of penetration of a shape that is easily described mathematically, and is progressive in its displacement of material with increased depth of penetration . Various attempts were made with points of spherical, conical and diamond shaped penetrators of various angles and with a variety of controlled bluntness applied to the extreme point. It was found that the majority of tests could best performed with the spherical forms of the Brinell type tests and the Ball and Cone shapes of the Rockwell tests. >>> I quote from The 16 th Edition of Machinery's Handbook as follows; "Rockwell Hardness Test-- The Rockwell hardness tester is essentially a machine that measures hardness by determining the depth of penetration of a penetrator into a specimen under certain fixed conditions of test. The penetrator may be either a steel ball or a diamond sphero-conical penetrator. The hardness number is related to the depth of indentation and the number is higher the harder the material." >>> The Vickers test is similar in application however the penetrator is a Square Based 135 deg diamond pyramid shape. >>> Brinell tests are performed with a ball type penetrator and are determined by the following Formula, (a simple Example of the Formula) >>> load on indenting tool in kilograms -------------------------------------- = Brinell Hardness Number surface area of indentation in sq. mm. >>> As can be seen the Rockwell test is a measure of controlled penetration and the Brinell test is a measure of the area of a controlled indentation. >>> As can easily be seen by the nature of the formula, the penetrator point must be easily described mathematically, in both cases, or the calculation becomes overwhelming in complexity and therefor useless for production inspection! >>> In general These tests will appear as from 1 -3 penetrations in a small area, Brinell tests would most likely never appear on WW-1 and WW-2 weapons. The most likely test would be the Rockwell type tests of from 1 -3 conical indentations taken within a 1/4" diameter area. And then seldom appearing on any but a very rare few possibly one in a hundred or more parts at the discretion of the inspection department. Thank you for your patience! ViggoG

12-31-2003, 06:33 PM	#9
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Bob, Please explain what this means as I really have no idea. "It means a part which could be returned to acceptable use by rework." Does this mean that Mauser was reworking parts on their military contracts? Why only the barrel? Why is the asterisk spread out randomly one to several hundred instead of consecutively marked? What is the connection between a Mauser Luger barrel marked with an asterisk in 1940 and a asterisk marked P.38 of 1941 from a different manufacture? ViggoG, Why is it not possible that Mauser had there own unique test that they (Mauser) used to randomly test/check/inspect/ Luger barrels for whatever reason they deemed necessary? Hardness, assembly, quality, whatever, that again was a random check/test that was unique to only Mauser Luger barrels? To my knowledge this asterisk is only found on Mauser Luger barrels randomly starting in mid to late 1940 and continues very sparsely through the byf 42's, with it not being found on any other Luger parts. I realize all of us have different opinions, and mine being that these are not marks of a reworked barrel, but of some sort of randomly done unique check/test of only the barrel. -- Set me straight -- Bill

01-01-2004, 12:23 AM	#10
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bill, I have not addressed the asterisk like mark to describe it in any other application than as a penetrator point shape as explained above, and I forcefully state; "Lets us not accept the "Asterisk" like mark as a hardness test !, Its use, as such, is most impractical and above all else the German weapons producers were not that! >>> The Germans were and are very advanced in the art of Materials Testing would never have applied a complex figure as a hardness testing penetrator form ! Several things will forever dispense of this false assumption that they used complex shapes for their their penetrators in hardness testing." ??? I have no opinion nor do I forward any theory as far as its use for other purposes may be concerned. My knowledge on the subject is purely from an Engineering or Technical Viewpoint. I leave conjecture on this subject to others ! I wish you every success in finding its true meaning. ViggoG

01-02-2004, 08:35 AM	#11
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, it has been a long time since I posted, but I wanted to jump into this one with a little more information. The "astrisk" was also stamped on other type ordnance items in addition to handguns, bayonets, rifles, etc. There has been no definitive answer to what it means. All the meanings so far are a hypothesis with no documentation to back up the true meaning. Marvin