Help on Proof ID...

kidvett · 10-12-2003, 01:09 PM

Hello,

I came across a 42 dated BYF with that curious barrel proof ahead of the regular firing proof. It looks like a circle w/ lines...like a drawing of the sun...I apologize for the poor image quality.

Does anyone know about that proof & can help on this one ??

Many thanks to all

Mark

Lugerdoc · 10-14-2003, 09:11 AM

Kidvett, I disagree with Tac, as I've seen this "Asterisk" marking on several as issued late Mauser PO8s. See "Third Reich Lugers" page 67 for photo. I suspect that this was a factory hardness test mark, and definately not E. German. A similar marking shows up on many WW2 P38 barrels, but no one seems to know what it is for sure. TH

G.W. Gill · 10-14-2003, 11:59 PM

On pg.230 of Walter's The Luger Book is a curiously similar mark.

Ron Wood · 10-15-2003, 12:46 AM

"World of Lugers - Proof Marks", Sam Costanzo, page 156, proof #2
"1939-1942 Mauser right barrel proof. Noted on 1939/42 toggle, 41 BYF and 42 BYF models. Reportedly represents end of production run."

Dwight Gruber · 10-15-2003, 01:02 AM

In the April 1997 Automag, Jim Cate notes that an eight-pointed star of this description is found on some P-08 and P-38 barrels. He noted that another collector had sent him a photo of a K.98 bayonet with the mark, and mentioned the same mark on the bolt handle of a K-98 rifle. In the picture (of the bayonet) provided, the mark appears more like the stamp on Mark's Luger than does the figure in Costanzo, as it has a distinct circle in the middle where Costanzo's mark does not.

Jim opined that the mark signified that the part so stamped had passed a hardness test, and it was stamped into the part because the simple hardness punch would have been too easy to pass over in an acceptance inspection.

Myself, I'm sceptical of this explanation, but it appears that we are no closer to the answer than when we started.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 10-15-2003, 09:10 AM

Tac, No problemo. FYI, the third book by John Walter is titled "The Luger Book" and basically contains the same info as his book "Luger", but in an alphabetized format. I believe that these are still available in soft back bindings at a resonable price. TH

G.W. Gill · 10-20-2003, 12:46 AM

If it isn't alphabetized I may not be able to negotiate it eight hours after happy hour.

Sgt Art · 10-20-2003, 09:01 PM

Looks like a spider as in Die Spinne. When exactly that organization started I'm not sure. It served as an SS escape organization.

Navy · 10-20-2003, 09:10 PM

Oh fer cryin' in the beer...another nefarious SS attribution. Please, spare us.

Tom A.

Sgt Art · 10-20-2003, 10:17 PM

I was waiting for that. Seriously, though, closest I can find is Costanzo describes it as byf late production run barrel proof. reportedly used as a parts proof by the Skoda Werke. Locations noted: right side of barrel. World of Lugers, pg 164 no.25.

Pete Ebbink · 10-20-2003, 10:38 PM

Hello Sgt. Art,

Alway thought we need a little cartoon, icon for "tongue in cheek". The closest I find that I use when "kidding" folks is the little icon that "winks"...

Maybe John D. or John S. can round up a "tongue in cheek" icon...???

Hello TAC,

To add to Tom's info...the 3rd. luger book by J. Walther is in encyclopedia format and does have some materials that did not appear in his earlier works...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John D. · 10-20-2003, 10:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
....Maybe John D. or John S. can round up a "tongue in cheek" icon...??<hr /></blockquote>You want a what??!!!!

Heydrich · 10-20-2003, 11:49 PM

I had a long-time collector tell me that is a French capture mark. And I once saw a G43 that had that stamp on the receiver above the serial number. As it appears on Kar.98k bayonets, as well as G43s, it is not inclusive to the Mauser Oberndorf plant. And it’s certainly not an “end of production run” stamp in my opinion.

Doubs · 10-21-2003, 12:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Heydrich:
I had a long-time collector tell me that is a French capture mark.<hr /></blockquote>This is not intended as a snide remark but that would explain why they aren't more common.

Heydrich · 10-21-2003, 12:54 AM

It was not a snide remark. The old-time collector who told me this was serious. It is also known that the French captured and re-issued a lot of G43 rifles for their post-WW2 army, so that would explain how it got on the receiver of one. Since the G43 I saw was bcd coded, and the bayonets are various codes, it indicates that stamp ended up on a mix of German equipment. And I agree with you Doubs, it sure seems to be an uncommon stamp, which isn’t usually indicative of a factory proof mark.

10-12-2003, 01:09 PM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Help on Proof ID... Hello, I came across a 42 dated BYF with that curious barrel proof ahead of the regular firing proof. It looks like a circle w/ lines...like a drawing of the sun...I apologize for the poor image quality. Does anyone know about that proof & can help on this one ?? Many thanks to all Mark

10-15-2003, 12:46 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	"World of Lugers - Proof Marks", Sam Costanzo, page 156, proof #2 "1939-1942 Mauser right barrel proof. Noted on 1939/42 toggle, 41 BYF and 42 BYF models. Reportedly represents end of production run." __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-15-2003, 09:10 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Tac, No problemo. FYI, the third book by John Walter is titled "The Luger Book" and basically contains the same info as his book "Luger", but in an alphabetized format. I believe that these are still available in soft back bindings at a resonable price. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-20-2003, 10:53 PM	#12
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>....Maybe John D. or John S. can round up a "tongue in cheek" icon...??</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You want a what??!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

10-21-2003, 12:14 AM	#14
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heydrich: <strong>I had a long-time collector tell me that is a French capture mark.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">This is not intended as a snide remark but that would explain why they aren't more common.

10-14-2003, 09:11 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Kidvett, I disagree with Tac, as I've seen this "Asterisk" marking on several as issued late Mauser PO8s. See "Third Reich Lugers" page 67 for photo. I suspect that this was a factory hardness test mark, and definately not E. German. A similar marking shows up on many WW2 P38 barrels, but no one seems to know what it is for sure. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-14-2003, 11:59 PM	#3
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	On pg.230 of Walter's The Luger Book is a curiously similar mark.

10-15-2003, 01:02 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	In the April 1997 Automag, Jim Cate notes that an eight-pointed star of this description is found on some P-08 and P-38 barrels. He noted that another collector had sent him a photo of a K.98 bayonet with the mark, and mentioned the same mark on the bolt handle of a K-98 rifle. In the picture (of the bayonet) provided, the mark appears more like the stamp on Mark's Luger than does the figure in Costanzo, as it has a distinct circle in the middle where Costanzo's mark does not. Jim opined that the mark signified that the part so stamped had passed a hardness test, and it was stamped into the part because the simple hardness punch would have been too easy to pass over in an acceptance inspection. Myself, I'm sceptical of this explanation, but it appears that we are no closer to the answer than when we started. --Dwight

10-20-2003, 12:46 AM	#7
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If it isn't alphabetized I may not be able to negotiate it eight hours after happy hour.

10-20-2003, 09:01 PM	#8
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looks like a spider as in Die Spinne. When exactly that organization started I'm not sure. It served as an SS escape organization.

10-20-2003, 09:10 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Oh fer cryin' in the beer...another nefarious SS attribution. Please, spare us. Tom A.

10-20-2003, 10:17 PM	#10
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I was waiting for that. Seriously, though, closest I can find is Costanzo describes it as byf late production run barrel proof. reportedly used as a parts proof by the Skoda Werke. Locations noted: right side of barrel. World of Lugers, pg 164 no.25.

10-20-2003, 10:38 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Sgt. Art, Alway thought we need a little cartoon, icon for "tongue in cheek". The closest I find that I use when "kidding" folks is the little icon that "winks"... Maybe John D. or John S. can round up a "tongue in cheek" icon...??? Hello TAC, To add to Tom's info...the 3rd. luger book by J. Walther is in encyclopedia format and does have some materials that did not appear in his earlier works... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-20-2003, 11:49 PM	#13
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had a long-time collector tell me that is a French capture mark. And I once saw a G43 that had that stamp on the receiver above the serial number. As it appears on Kar.98k bayonets, as well as G43s, it is not inclusive to the Mauser Oberndorf plant. And it’s certainly not an “end of production run” stamp in my opinion.

10-21-2003, 12:54 AM	#15
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It was not a snide remark. The old-time collector who told me this was serious. It is also known that the French captured and re-issued a lot of G43 rifles for their post-WW2 army, so that would explain how it got on the receiver of one. Since the G43 I saw was bcd coded, and the bayonets are various codes, it indicates that stamp ended up on a mix of German equipment. And I agree with you Doubs, it sure seems to be an uncommon stamp, which isn’t usually indicative of a factory proof mark.