Digfind acquired: 1920 rework of a WW1 artillery

[Vlim]

Hi,

Acquired this one at the Ciney, Belgium show. Sadly no details on where or how it was discovered. It has some interesting details though. The chamber shows signs of a 1920 property mark, as well as a 1917 or 1918 chamber date. Also, the pistol has a standard 9mm barrel but shows the small cut-out for the artillery version. Although one of the images appears to show an Erfurt logo, the DWM logo is pretty obvious on it.

Traces of a division marking are visible on the gripstrap. Sadly too badly corroded to make any sense. The serial number appears to be a short one (3 digit) with the last 2 digits being '11'.

The pistol appears to have malfunctioned. As the pictures show the toggle is partially retracted to the rear and the ejector is broken. There is a spent case (I checked ) in the chamber. I'm working on loosening the receiver and toggle assembly to see if I can extract the case.

This might well be a steel case that jammed.

Also note the hole in the takedown lever. This has been observed on other dug up lugers. Maybe it's just a rust effect.

[Edward Tinker]

Great item for discussion Vlim around a office or den at home,

Ed

[Vlim]

Hi Ed,

It certainly is. Price was good and it makes a nice paperweight.

Or maybe I'll send it to Thor for some minor retouching work

[Lugerdoc]

GvV. I'm sure Thor would love that one as a before photo. There's a great article in the 4th Edition of the Gun Collector's Digest entitled "1300 grams of rust" showing how Gale Morgan restored a 20 shot broom, almost this bad. If he did your luger, it would rival a like new carbine in price. Probably your best bet to get it apart, is to soak it in WD40 for a couple of years. TH

[Russ]

you can definitly tell they were shooting corrosive ammo out of it.
LOL

Russ

[Fritzer]

Hello,

Very interesting piece to be sure.

How were you able to determine there was a spent case remaining inside? Were you able to see down the barrel with some device?

I am interested on how you determined that it was a casing, not the breech face when you examined it.

Quite an unusual find.
Thank you for sharing it.
Regards,
Fritz.

[Vlim]

Hi Fritzer, good observation.

Well, basically two tests were used. Test one was shoving a cleaning rod down the barrel and check for a bullet sticking out. This test confirmed that there was no loaded round in the chamber, but this was not enough to determine whether an empty case was still present.

Test two involved loosening the broken front part of the ejector (it had snapped down the middle). I managed to loosen the ejector and move the front portion of the ejector backwards and this exposed the rim of the cartridge that was stuck in the chamber.

I also managed to restore the safety lever to a somewhat working order. Funnily enough, it was stuck into the 'safe' position.

[the gunman]

Hi gerben Any ideas about the holes through the barrel they almost looked sort of drilled or punched there ?

[Vlim]

Hi,

Well, the rust appears to be the main culprit, probably water combined with corrosive powder residue.

Someone did some cleaning on the luger earlier and I guess it was pretty much a solid brick of rust when it was originally recovered. There are traces of crude removal of the magazine as well, causing the obvious damage to the grip and mainspring area.

As for legal ownership issues over here: I'd have to do some additional checking, but I guess it's even obvious to the untrained police officer that this is no longer a functional side arm. Worst case scenario is that I'll have to split it in half (through the center).

[Lugerdoc]

GvV, I think that you meant to say extractor rather than ejector. Actually splitting this one down the middle, would probably add to its value with the round in the chamber. TH

[Vlim]

Tom,

Thanks for the observation. The thing sticking out on top is broken. That flat thingie with the triagle on it's side is still in one piece

I'm actually working on opening the toggle and I'm confident I can get it fully opened within a couple of days. Some further soaking is needed

[Vlim]

Well,

I managed to free up the toggle and almost completely dismantle the pistol.

The firing pin is completely stuck to the front breach block and it appears to be completely fractured. The rest of the pistol was in an amazing condition. All small parts, with the exception of the sear spring, were all there. Even the little trigger spring was still present. I managed to remove the remains of the stuck cartridge case but there was too much deterioration, so no positive ID on the maker.

The primer looks a bit strange to me and it doesn't appear to have been fired. Makes you wonder where the bullet went... Note that the primer center sticks out.

The receiver was somewhat warped, making me believe that this pistol was subjected to a burst of heat before it went underground. The heat area seems to have been greatest on the lefthand rear side.

These are some close-ups of the case. Sorry for the fuzziness, but my camera lacks a decent macrolense.

[Ron Smith]

Gerben, The pistol was in a fire. The round cooked off. The primer detonated and flowed back into the firing pin hole. That's probably why the barrel pitted the way it did. Hot spots, such as embers were touching the metal where the big pits are and softened the steel, so that it corroded faster in the soft areas. It may have been in a bombed and burning vehicle.

Ron

[Fritzer]

Gerben, Ron,

I was wondering about the fire possibility, when you said the thumb safety was rusted in the "safe" position, and an empty casing was in the chamber. The missing frame parts in the magazine area also had me thinking - any rounds in the mag would have cooked off too.

Your earlier post about " There are traces of crude removal of the magazine as well, causing the obvious damage to the grip and mainspring area." gave me the impression that the magazine had survived - so I gave up on that weak theory.

I was wondering about the position of the cannon assembly you mentioned. If the pistol had the thumb safety on, and the round in the chamber were ignited - Would any binding or malfunction of the toggle occur????

I examined my 1917 and thought about it - but I don't know enough about the mechanics of the toggle/cannon movement. What do you think?

Regards,
Fritz.

[Vlim]

Hi Ron, Fritzer,

Ron: Your theory sure sound plausible.
Fritzer: Some parts of the frame were obivously torn away, but with hindsight it's pretty probable that the magazine/grip area virtually exploded as the result of a fire. This also explains the distortion of the receiver and the missing sear spring.

If a luger would fire with the safety on, I'd expect the firing pin and the safety bar to get damaged and the receiver locking up. The toggle assembly itself is pretty sturdy and would survive.

I think a large amount of heat combined with the discharge of cooked ammo would pretty much explain what happened to this pistol.

[Bill Jensen]

Dear Sir,

I am interested in your technique for freeing up the rusted parts of this Luger. I also have a dug Artillery Luger that I have managed to remove all the rust using Alkaline electrochemical process that does not harm the remaining iron. I believe that the pieces should remove, but would like your opinion and experience. Thank you.

ADMIN: I lightened the picture a bit, ebt

[Bill Jensen]

Here is a closer picture. It came from Rancourt trenches in the St Pierre Vaast Woods, lost about March 1917. It had a trommel magazine in it which is being sent from France right now. It seems to be a variant type II. wdjensen123@hotmail.com

[Edward Tinker]

Bill, many times it is better to start your own thread, then you can receive direct answers etc., and it just makes it easier.

Using keroseen (sp) can help loosen up stuck parts. But personally, I am unsure if you'll ever get much action from this artillery. And I would worry that pieces might break if forced?

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

I wonder how Liquid Wrench�® would do on something like this?

--Dwight

[Bill Jensen]

Hi there,

I have it soaking in Liquid Wrench right now for a few days. I'll let you know if any parts free up. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Bill Jensen