Simson Luger- Help

Tony S. · 11-26-2002, 08:34 AM

I have a Simson Luger that I purchased at a Gun Show a couple of months ago. All numbers match and has the small eagle over a six (two different sizes) on all parts. It has a blank chamber and Simson & Co Suhl on toggle. I do not know much about Simson guns and I was trying to figure out what was the year that this particulary gun was produced and specifically what finished should it have (Rust blue or salt blue)? Also, what parts were Strawed and finish for all other small parts?
Thanks for your help. Any little bit of information is very appreciated.
Thanks, Tony
[img]confused.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2002, 10:44 AM

Tony, can you provide pictures?

The markings on the right you describe should help narrow it down, but are there any other markings on the left of the frame?

What is the serial number, as it is pretty hard to narrow down a year without a serial number?

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

kidvett · 11-26-2002, 10:58 AM

Hello Tony

PICS would be greatly appreciated as SIMSONs are less than common...

Thanks,

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

kidvett · 11-26-2002, 11:04 AM

Tony,

Small fast basic info on SIMSON ( if that can help )

4 variations:
dated chamber rework
blank chamber rework
1925 dated
S code

Proofmarks ( lots of em...)

Eagle over 6, Eagle over 37, Weimar Eagle

Production estimated 10 000 1922 to 1932

kidvett

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Tony S. · 11-26-2002, 12:22 PM

I will try to post pictures in the near future. I am actually attempting to re-store this gun. When I purchased the gun it had 40% of bluing from the left side missing due to light pitting. I have NEVER re-store a gun before. But for the price that I paid for it, I thought that this would make a good project. I already removed all pitting (some very very small and few pin holes remaining, which look more like inperfections on the metal and usually found on Lugers) and buffed the metal nicely. All markings still intact and no rounding of edges. It took me a good 5-6 hours to get to this point. The next step is to remove the old remaining bluing from the gun. I prefer not to sand it down. Any good suggestions? The inside of the gun is in the white already. After completion of project, I will post pictures. Now as far as the markings, they are mostly Eagles over 6, two sizes, and a elongated eagle (similar to those found on 1914 models). It is hard to explain them, pictures would probably work better.
Still, I would like to do this as close as possible to what they did back them. I already Strawed the parts that I thought were right for the era. I still would like to get more information on gun finish, which I believe it to be Rust Blue, and small parts finish.
Thanks for your help in advance. I am well employed with the Coast Guard, so I do not plan to take over the Luger restoration World. It is just a hobby!
Tony [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Edward Tinker · 11-26-2002, 12:29 PM

You made some of the guys pull their hair when you said you were restoring her!

[img]biggrin.gif[/img]

But, like you said, it sounds like she was in rough shape, so a perfect candidate for playing with! (Still takes guts to start to sand away and buff). Just take it slow and like you said, a bit at a time.

Keep us informed [img]smile.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 11-26-2002, 12:30 PM

the fact that the inside is still in the white is proof that the exterior finish was Rust Blued...

This is a tedious process, but with the correct chemicals, and the proper metal preparaton the results are worth the work... Just look at any of Thor's restorations to see a master at work.

His chemical processes are his trade secret, but if you do some research, you should be able to come up with an appropriate Rust Blue chemical formula that will give excellent results.

Brownells, Inc. probably sells rust blue chemicals...

You should post "before" photos now and then "after" photos so other neophytes can see the steps in the process... just my suggestion.

Good Luck.

Tony S. · 11-26-2002, 06:55 PM

I included a pic of the before look. I let you know how it looks after I get done. I still would like to know about the finish used for small parts. Any takers?
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/close-up.JPG
Tony
"SEMPER PARATUS"
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Pete Ebbink · 11-26-2002, 07:03 PM

Hello Kidvett,

I may be wrong, but I recall that Simpson dated lugers go from 1925 to 1928; not just the "1925"...

I am away from my books so I am just running on memory here and could very well be mistaken...(?)

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

kidvett · 11-26-2002, 07:14 PM

Pete,

You are absolutely right on this! I mentionned the 1925 date as this in the one we see most often. In any case SIMSONs are rarely seen on the Collectors market as most specimens are in private collections. I find myself very lucky to have one ( undated chamber variant ) and do love it as much as my Erfurts as both manufacturers display LOTS of proofmarks.

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

John Holbrook · 11-26-2002, 09:42 PM

Here is a link to some interesting Simson info w/drawings...

http://users.skynet.be/HL-Editions/l.../alusimson.HTM

policeluger · 11-27-2002, 12:00 PM

Tony, the gun is indeed in need of a new finish. If you will email me at collins1974@earthlink.net we can set up a time that we can have a quick phone call. I believe I can turn you in the right direction for supplys and instructions to rust blue. I have rust blued many old soft solder shot gun double barrels, as they can not be hot blued due to high heat in bluing tanks, plus total guns I have lost count of. You will need a small propane, hand held, heating source, a tank to heat boiling water and a few other items...all of this shoud be out doors...hope I can help, and I now have a standard set of instruction I have been sending out that will help you in strawing the small parts if you wish too. I love the doing it yourself approach, its how I started my gun smith business 25 years or so ago.

LP08 · 11-27-2002, 03:07 PM

I hate to throw cold water on your hobby but you are not restoring the finish. You are refinishing the pistol. A restoration requires returning the metal surfaces and milling patterns to original condition. In addition, the color of the bluing and the strawing varies from maker to maker and over time. A Simson restoration requires the attention of someone who has studied Simson finishes and manufacture. I can think of only one restorer who might be competent with Simsons though there might be others out there. Ultimately, if you want to restore the Simson you will have to work with a knowledgable restorer who can reconstruct the original finish and condition and repair the refinish work you've done. It would help if you don't remove any more metal or original finish. An original 40% Simson might be worth, eg., $1000 whereas a refinished Simson would be worth around $450.

policeluger · 11-27-2002, 04:46 PM

I have been in email contact with Tony, so will try too catch LP08 up to what we have talked about. It is my feeling from Tony that he want some help with materials already bought, to refinish the gun and wanted some help/info. To refinish or restore he is a long on going debate that will not be setteled here. Once and refinish work is started, no matter what you want to call it, by whom ever is doing the work, it is a rework/reblued, what ever, gun. It is not longer original finish, and will at that point never be. From what I've gotten out of his emails, he is happy to be active in a home project that will not distroy the gun and will not break the bank.

Tony S. · 12-16-2002, 10:25 PM

Okay, I am about ready to do some Rust Bluing. I attached some pictures of gun after prep job. The pictures are somewhat glossy due to the camera flash.
Thanks for those that provided information on how to do this.
Tony
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSC00117.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSC00116.JPG

Tony S. · 01-03-2003, 12:25 PM

Well, I have completed my work here. The gun came out 100% better than what I expected. It took a lot of work and attention to details. Now, I understand why it is expensive to do this kind of stuff. I will like to thank those that help and those that doubted me as well. You inspired me to do a better job. The gun may not be perfect for some of you eagle eyes, but it is perfect to me. My $400 gun looks like a winner.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lsiderestored.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Rsiderestored.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Topsiderestored.JPG

Thanks, Tony S.
"SEMPER PARATUS"

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Heydrich · 01-03-2003, 04:37 PM

Tony:

I think they are yanking your chain with the $400 deal. Don’t believe that for a second. I see import marked, mismatched, mucked with, Russian reworked byf models that go for $450 (or more!) on the Internet. My uneducated guess (I own no Luger books, and just read the posts here) is that if you put that Simson up for sale, here, or on a auction site, collectors would start to chortle insanely and the value would magically triple in value immediately. Nice restoration job by the way. You showed balls to go through with that risky project, especially with such a rare bird to work with, and with all the doubters that you mention. I say this because in the many years I’ve collected, I’ve seen and heard of so many restoration jobs and “projects” that have ended up in complete catastrophe. Just go to any gun show, or peruse a gun-related auction site, and you will see a plethora of firearms that have been screwed over by Bubba. I’ve noticed that experienced collectors and dealers (like some of the wise Luger aficionados on this site) seem to be able to just glance at a piece to tell how much it’s been Bubbafied. So, restoration, or reworking of German collectables, is best left to the professionals like Thor, in my opinion. An added bonus is that Thor is one of the nicest persons I’ve ever met over the Web. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

ken d · 01-03-2003, 07:17 PM

Tony:
For your first attempt your Simson is outstanding. I have a soft spot for Simsons' myself. Have one just restored by Thor and several others. I feel they have never had the attention they deserve.

Regards

Ken D

11-26-2002, 08:34 AM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Simson Luger- Help I have a Simson Luger that I purchased at a Gun Show a couple of months ago. All numbers match and has the small eagle over a six (two different sizes) on all parts. It has a blank chamber and Simson & Co Suhl on toggle. I do not know much about Simson guns and I was trying to figure out what was the year that this particulary gun was produced and specifically what finished should it have (Rust blue or salt blue)? Also, what parts were Strawed and finish for all other small parts? Thanks for your help. Any little bit of information is very appreciated. Thanks, Tony [img]confused.gif[/img]

11-26-2002, 10:44 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	Tony, can you provide pictures? The markings on the right you describe should help narrow it down, but are there any other markings on the left of the frame? What is the serial number, as it is pretty hard to narrow down a year without a serial number? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-26-2002, 12:29 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	You made some of the guys pull their hair when you said you were restoring her! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] But, like you said, it sounds like she was in rough shape, so a perfect candidate for playing with! (Still takes guts to start to sand away and buff). Just take it slow and like you said, a bit at a time. Keep us informed [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-26-2002, 12:30 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	the fact that the inside is still in the white is proof that the exterior finish was Rust Blued... This is a tedious process, but with the correct chemicals, and the proper metal preparaton the results are worth the work... Just look at any of Thor's restorations to see a master at work. His chemical processes are his trade secret, but if you do some research, you should be able to come up with an appropriate Rust Blue chemical formula that will give excellent results. Brownells, Inc. probably sells rust blue chemicals... You should post "before" photos now and then "after" photos so other neophytes can see the steps in the process... just my suggestion. Good Luck. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-26-2002, 09:42 PM	#11
John Holbrook RIP Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bellingham, WA. Posts: 109 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a link to some interesting Simson info w/drawings... http://users.skynet.be/HL-Editions/l.../alusimson.HTM __________________ "Give me a fast ship, and I will sail in harms way!", John Paul Jones

11-26-2002, 10:58 AM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello Tony PICS would be greatly appreciated as SIMSONs are less than common... Thanks, kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

11-26-2002, 11:04 AM	#4
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Tony, Small fast basic info on SIMSON ( if that can help ) 4 variations: dated chamber rework blank chamber rework 1925 dated S code Proofmarks ( lots of em...) Eagle over 6, Eagle over 37, Weimar Eagle Production estimated 10 000 1922 to 1932 kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

11-26-2002, 12:22 PM	#5
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I will try to post pictures in the near future. I am actually attempting to re-store this gun. When I purchased the gun it had 40% of bluing from the left side missing due to light pitting. I have NEVER re-store a gun before. But for the price that I paid for it, I thought that this would make a good project. I already removed all pitting (some very very small and few pin holes remaining, which look more like inperfections on the metal and usually found on Lugers) and buffed the metal nicely. All markings still intact and no rounding of edges. It took me a good 5-6 hours to get to this point. The next step is to remove the old remaining bluing from the gun. I prefer not to sand it down. Any good suggestions? The inside of the gun is in the white already. After completion of project, I will post pictures. Now as far as the markings, they are mostly Eagles over 6, two sizes, and a elongated eagle (similar to those found on 1914 models). It is hard to explain them, pictures would probably work better. Still, I would like to do this as close as possible to what they did back them. I already Strawed the parts that I thought were right for the era. I still would like to get more information on gun finish, which I believe it to be Rust Blue, and small parts finish. Thanks for your help in advance. I am well employed with the Coast Guard, so I do not plan to take over the Luger restoration World. It is just a hobby! Tony [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

11-26-2002, 06:55 PM	#8
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I included a pic of the before look. I let you know how it looks after I get done. I still would like to know about the finish used for small parts. Any takers? http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/close-up.JPG Tony "SEMPER PARATUS" <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

11-26-2002, 07:03 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hello Kidvett, I may be wrong, but I recall that Simpson dated lugers go from 1925 to 1928; not just the "1925"... I am away from my books so I am just running on memory here and could very well be mistaken...(?) Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-26-2002, 07:14 PM	#10
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Pete, You are absolutely right on this! I mentionned the 1925 date as this in the one we see most often. In any case SIMSONs are rarely seen on the Collectors market as most specimens are in private collections. I find myself very lucky to have one ( undated chamber variant ) and do love it as much as my Erfurts as both manufacturers display LOTS of proofmarks. kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

11-27-2002, 12:00 PM	#12
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Tony, the gun is indeed in need of a new finish. If you will email me at collins1974@earthlink.net we can set up a time that we can have a quick phone call. I believe I can turn you in the right direction for supplys and instructions to rust blue. I have rust blued many old soft solder shot gun double barrels, as they can not be hot blued due to high heat in bluing tanks, plus total guns I have lost count of. You will need a small propane, hand held, heating source, a tank to heat boiling water and a few other items...all of this shoud be out doors...hope I can help, and I now have a standard set of instruction I have been sending out that will help you in strawing the small parts if you wish too. I love the doing it yourself approach, its how I started my gun smith business 25 years or so ago.

11-27-2002, 03:07 PM	#13
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I hate to throw cold water on your hobby but you are not restoring the finish. You are refinishing the pistol. A restoration requires returning the metal surfaces and milling patterns to original condition. In addition, the color of the bluing and the strawing varies from maker to maker and over time. A Simson restoration requires the attention of someone who has studied Simson finishes and manufacture. I can think of only one restorer who might be competent with Simsons though there might be others out there. Ultimately, if you want to restore the Simson you will have to work with a knowledgable restorer who can reconstruct the original finish and condition and repair the refinish work you've done. It would help if you don't remove any more metal or original finish. An original 40% Simson might be worth, eg., $1000 whereas a refinished Simson would be worth around $450.

11-27-2002, 04:46 PM	#14
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I have been in email contact with Tony, so will try too catch LP08 up to what we have talked about. It is my feeling from Tony that he want some help with materials already bought, to refinish the gun and wanted some help/info. To refinish or restore he is a long on going debate that will not be setteled here. Once and refinish work is started, no matter what you want to call it, by whom ever is doing the work, it is a rework/reblued, what ever, gun. It is not longer original finish, and will at that point never be. From what I've gotten out of his emails, he is happy to be active in a home project that will not distroy the gun and will not break the bank.

12-16-2002, 10:25 PM	#15
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Okay, I am about ready to do some Rust Bluing. I attached some pictures of gun after prep job. The pictures are somewhat glossy due to the camera flash. Thanks for those that provided information on how to do this. Tony http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSC00117.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSC00116.JPG

01-03-2003, 12:25 PM	#16
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well, I have completed my work here. The gun came out 100% better than what I expected. It took a lot of work and attention to details. Now, I understand why it is expensive to do this kind of stuff. I will like to thank those that help and those that doubted me as well. You inspired me to do a better job. The gun may not be perfect for some of you eagle eyes, but it is perfect to me. My $400 gun looks like a winner. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Lsiderestored.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Rsiderestored.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Topsiderestored.JPG Thanks, Tony S. "SEMPER PARATUS" <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

01-03-2003, 04:37 PM	#17
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tony: I think they are yanking your chain with the $400 deal. Don’t believe that for a second. I see import marked, mismatched, mucked with, Russian reworked byf models that go for $450 (or more!) on the Internet. My uneducated guess (I own no Luger books, and just read the posts here) is that if you put that Simson up for sale, here, or on a auction site, collectors would start to chortle insanely and the value would magically triple in value immediately. Nice restoration job by the way. You showed balls to go through with that risky project, especially with such a rare bird to work with, and with all the doubters that you mention. I say this because in the many years I’ve collected, I’ve seen and heard of so many restoration jobs and “projects” that have ended up in complete catastrophe. Just go to any gun show, or peruse a gun-related auction site, and you will see a plethora of firearms that have been screwed over by Bubba. I’ve noticed that experienced collectors and dealers (like some of the wise Luger aficionados on this site) seem to be able to just glance at a piece to tell how much it’s been Bubbafied. So, restoration, or reworking of German collectables, is best left to the professionals like Thor, in my opinion. An added bonus is that Thor is one of the nicest persons I’ve ever met over the Web. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

01-03-2003, 07:17 PM	#18
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Tony: For your first attempt your Simson is outstanding. I have a soft spot for Simsons' myself. Have one just restored by Thor and several others. I feel they have never had the attention they deserve. Regards Ken D