DWM P08 serial number question

simoon · 09-28-2003, 03:24 PM

Excellent Board! Yes I'm a newbie.

I need something straightened out. I have a 1918 DWM military Luger. In reading "The Luger Pistol" by Fred Datig, I am of the understanding that a factory original Luger will ALWAYS have the 4 digit serial number on the barrel and frame, sometimes accompanied by the "8,28" indicating the land diameter of the bore in mm.
I see some pics in this forum to that effect.
The piece in question has all matching but there is no serial number on the barrel, only the "8,28.
I say this is a rebarrel. Others say it is original.
Can someone confirm? Thanks!!

Herb · 09-28-2003, 04:30 PM

Simon, check again, the 8,28 is not a standard Luger land measurement, it should be 8,82 up to 85. Look carefully at the upper right and upper left sides of the barrel, near the rear, is there a very small proof mark there?

Frank · 09-28-2003, 04:41 PM

Somoon, Herb is correct regarding the 8,82 or what ever it is. I have never seen a WWI Luger that didn't have the serial number along with the script suffix stamped in the barrel, just forward of the bore diameter number (8,82). I suspect it was rebarreled!!! Many WWI Lugers were reconditioned for use during WWII and some were rebarreled during this period. As Herb mentioned, look for some proof marks on the barrel. Photos would indeed help.

simoon · 09-28-2003, 05:11 PM

My bad. 8,82
Yes there is a proof on upper left of barrel, and right side.
I have good pics, but have not figured out how to add. When I do, I'll post!
Thanks for your reply!

John D. · 09-28-2003, 07:22 PM

Hi simoon,

If you would like - send your pics to me at johnd@rennlist.com - and I will post them for you, OK?

Best to you.!

- John

John D. · 09-28-2003, 08:47 PM

And here are simoon's pics:

Please reply to simoon in this thread rather then me (I'm just assisting

)

Best to all...!!

Pete Ebbink · 09-28-2003, 09:09 PM

WAG...here on my part...but is that a Simpson E/6 proof on the top side of the barrel. Thus a Weimar rework of an Imperial DWM luger ?

Looks like the proof stamp strike was not even, as the bird's head does not appear to show well...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 09-28-2003, 09:19 PM

Looks like a Simson Eagle, but as Pete said, a Weimar rework, totally acceptable, some value a weimar rework less than an original Imperial, but nothing like a post-WW2 rework or USA re-barrel.

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 09-28-2003, 10:18 PM

Noticed some strawed small parts appear blued...maybe the gun was refinished again, after, the Weimar period rework...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

simoon · 09-28-2003, 11:01 PM

I've learned more in a day than the last twenty years! Great forum!
Good catch on the locking bolt. It's the one straw piece that's reblued. The Barrel doesn't quite match the color of the rest. Except for the barrel, all numbers match.

Is this a shooter or does it have collector value?

I was admiring the professional reblue that Darivs Architectvs did. The grips need a trip to Hugh at the least.

Thanks for the feedback!

Doubs · 09-28-2003, 11:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Frank:
I suspect it was rebarreled!!! Photos would indeed help.<hr /></blockquote>Frank's post was made before the pictures were posted but it's clearly a rebarreled DWM. The first picture shows that the receiver was notched for the rear sight of an Artillery barrel and as far as I'm aware, DWM only notched the receivers of pistols actually used as Artillery models, unlike Erfurt which notched most of their receivers after late 1916.

It's also interesting to note the milling marks that would have been polished out in earlier years. The pressure of war-time production clearly lowered DWM's standards.

Dwight Gruber · 09-29-2003, 09:37 AM

Frame is defnitely DWM, probably Artillery as has been pointed out.

The upper barrel Eagle/6 is a Simson inspector's mark. The right-side eagle is a Simson surplus military parts proof (Costanzo, p.109, #148). Costanzo notes these as being present on 1933 reworks of WWI military and commercial guns. Check to see if this mark appears on the left breechblock as well.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 09-29-2003, 10:34 AM

I would be interested to see closeups of the other serial numbers on other parts for comparison the the numbers on the front of the frame...

The frame numbers certainly appear to be sharp and clear for a gun that has been refinished... possibly even twice. A comparison of the fonts used for the various numbers would be very interesting.

simoon · 09-29-2003, 09:22 PM

Here are some pics... I figured out the post process with some help of the great tutorial!!

Hoping this image post works...

simoon · 09-30-2003, 07:42 AM

Forgot one... hope I'm not clogging your storage.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/dwm.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/dwm.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

ADMIN: made in thumb for viewing, EBT

Lugerdoc · 09-30-2003, 09:24 AM

Simoon, The Imperial inspector's proof on your rear toggle link indicates to me that it was a left over WW1 Erfurt part, that probably went to Simson after the war and then used to replace the "sightless" original LPO8 link. Perferly correct for a Weimar rework. The size and alinement of the serials on your TD lever and sideplate do consern me a bit, but may also be correct for a rework. TH

Dwight Gruber · 09-30-2003, 09:58 AM

Still curious about the proof on the left side of the breechblock...

Excellent pictures, by the way, and quite an interesting Luger.

--Dwight

simoon · 09-30-2003, 10:11 AM

I'm using an inexpensive Sony digital camera that I despise for anything other than macro shots. Photoshop is great for manipulating the 1.2 meg files down to a reasonable size for posting.

I am most thankful for the feedback. This is an incredible forum.

I am hooked. Need to buy some Luger reference books.

I'll post one last pic if you want of the breechlock.

John Sabato · 09-30-2003, 11:05 AM

The macro photos's are excellent indeed. What model of Sony camera are you using just in case I find one at a yard sale?

simoon · 09-30-2003, 11:44 AM

Cyber-shot DSC-S70

Saw one on ebay for $86. I would not buy one new..

09-28-2003, 04:30 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Simon, check again, the 8,28 is not a standard Luger land measurement, it should be 8,82 up to 85. Look carefully at the upper right and upper left sides of the barrel, near the rear, is there a very small proof mark there? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-28-2003, 05:11 PM	#4
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My bad. 8,82 Yes there is a proof on upper left of barrel, and right side. I have good pics, but have not figured out how to add. When I do, I'll post! Thanks for your reply! __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-28-2003, 09:19 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Looks like a Simson Eagle, but as Pete said, a Weimar rework, totally acceptable, some value a weimar rework less than an original Imperial, but nothing like a post-WW2 rework or USA re-barrel. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-28-2003, 11:01 PM	#10
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I've learned more in a day than the last twenty years! Great forum! Good catch on the locking bolt. It's the one straw piece that's reblued. The Barrel doesn't quite match the color of the rest. Except for the barrel, all numbers match. Is this a shooter or does it have collector value? I was admiring the professional reblue that Darivs Architectvs did. The grips need a trip to Hugh at the least. Thanks for the feedback! __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-28-2003, 11:27 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,618 Times in 527 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Frank: <strong>I suspect it was rebarreled!!! Photos would indeed help.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Frank's post was made before the pictures were posted but it's clearly a rebarreled DWM. The first picture shows that the receiver was notched for the rear sight of an Artillery barrel and as far as I'm aware, DWM only notched the receivers of pistols actually used as Artillery models, unlike Erfurt which notched most of their receivers after late 1916. It's also interesting to note the milling marks that would have been polished out in earlier years. The pressure of war-time production clearly lowered DWM's standards.

09-28-2003, 03:24 PM	#1
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	DWM P08 serial number question Excellent Board! Yes I'm a newbie. I need something straightened out. I have a 1918 DWM military Luger. In reading "The Luger Pistol" by Fred Datig, I am of the understanding that a factory original Luger will ALWAYS have the 4 digit serial number on the barrel and frame, sometimes accompanied by the "8,28" indicating the land diameter of the bore in mm. I see some pics in this forum to that effect. The piece in question has all matching but there is no serial number on the barrel, only the "8,28. I say this is a rebarrel. Others say it is original. Can someone confirm? Thanks!! __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-28-2003, 04:41 PM	#3
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Somoon, Herb is correct regarding the 8,82 or what ever it is. I have never seen a WWI Luger that didn't have the serial number along with the script suffix stamped in the barrel, just forward of the bore diameter number (8,82). I suspect it was rebarreled!!! Many WWI Lugers were reconditioned for use during WWII and some were rebarreled during this period. As Herb mentioned, look for some proof marks on the barrel. Photos would indeed help.

09-28-2003, 07:22 PM	#5
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 473 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Hi simoon, If you would like - send your pics to me at johnd@rennlist.com - and I will post them for you, OK? Best to you.! - John

09-28-2003, 08:47 PM	#6
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 473 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	And here are simoon's pics: Please reply to simoon in this thread rather then me (I'm just assisting ) Best to all...!!

09-28-2003, 09:09 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	WAG...here on my part...but is that a Simpson E/6 proof on the top side of the barrel. Thus a Weimar rework of an Imperial DWM luger ? Looks like the proof stamp strike was not even, as the bird's head does not appear to show well... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-28-2003, 10:18 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Noticed some strawed small parts appear blued...maybe the gun was refinished again, after, the Weimar period rework...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

09-29-2003, 09:37 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Frame is defnitely DWM, probably Artillery as has been pointed out. The upper barrel Eagle/6 is a Simson inspector's mark. The right-side eagle is a Simson surplus military parts proof (Costanzo, p.109, #148). Costanzo notes these as being present on 1933 reworks of WWI military and commercial guns. Check to see if this mark appears on the left breechblock as well. --Dwight

09-29-2003, 10:34 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I would be interested to see closeups of the other serial numbers on other parts for comparison the the numbers on the front of the frame... The frame numbers certainly appear to be sharp and clear for a gun that has been refinished... possibly even twice. A comparison of the fonts used for the various numbers would be very interesting. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-29-2003, 09:22 PM	#14
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here are some pics... I figured out the post process with some help of the great tutorial!! Hoping this image post works... __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-30-2003, 07:42 AM	#15
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Forgot one... hope I'm not clogging your storage. <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/dwm.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/dwm.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> ADMIN: made in thumb for viewing, EBT __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-30-2003, 09:24 AM	#16
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Simoon, The Imperial inspector's proof on your rear toggle link indicates to me that it was a left over WW1 Erfurt part, that probably went to Simson after the war and then used to replace the "sightless" original LPO8 link. Perferly correct for a Weimar rework. The size and alinement of the serials on your TD lever and sideplate do consern me a bit, but may also be correct for a rework. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-30-2003, 09:58 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Still curious about the proof on the left side of the breechblock... Excellent pictures, by the way, and quite an interesting Luger. --Dwight

09-30-2003, 10:11 AM	#18
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I'm using an inexpensive Sony digital camera that I despise for anything other than macro shots. Photoshop is great for manipulating the 1.2 meg files down to a reasonable size for posting. I am most thankful for the feedback. This is an incredible forum. I am hooked. Need to buy some Luger reference books. I'll post one last pic if you want of the breechlock. __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

09-30-2003, 11:05 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The macro photos's are excellent indeed. What model of Sony camera are you using just in case I find one at a yard sale? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-30-2003, 11:44 AM	#20
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Cyber-shot DSC-S70 Saw one on ebay for $86. I would not buy one new.. __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.