clapboard stock

vf1000ride · 05-07-2003, 09:58 PM

Howdy everyone. Got refered your way from the Battlerifles forum for this question. I have a 1921 luger that I would like to buy the stock for. What are the general requirements to keep me out of the hotseat with the law. It is a standard 3 inch barrel. 92XX V, for the serial.
I have some photo's on my web page.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000...photo_page.htm
I'm looking for the phone # of the BATF to ask them the same question. Thanks for any help you folks can give.

Dwight Gruber · 05-07-2003, 10:49 PM

Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no stock which can be legally attached to your Luger. Only certain stocks can be attached to LP-08s (Artillery models), Navy models, and 1900-1902-1906 American Eagle models with particular grips.

http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html
http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html

are in the information portion of this Lugerforum. They are the pertinent parts of the BATF regulations concerning Lugers and shoulder stocks.

--Dwight

Thor · 05-07-2003, 10:51 PM

Unless your model was originally issued with a stock, you are SOL! (SO out of Luck) An Artillery Luger must have only an Artillery STock, a Navy stocked Luger must only have a Navy Stock, etc. The short Finnish Army version M23??? I think was issued with a stock but there are none made in 1921 that I am aware of. Even changing the barrel to make it look like an Artillery, then buying an Artillery stock is not legal as far as I know, to attached to the Luger.

ViggoG · 05-08-2003, 01:07 AM

vf1000ride ,
Print out these Rulings and READ OVER and OVER!!
I cannot be too emphatic about this.
Many years in a Federal Lockup is the Penalty for an Error on your Part, Or If you are Very Lucky You may get by on being Bankrupted by Your Defense Lawyers Fees!
I own a 1906 AE Luger that appears on the "Exempted List", and I have constructed a close resemblance to the "Ideal Shoulder Stock / Holster that meets every requirement of the "Rules", But I still am going to Write for a letter of clarification for my Holster Stock.
I feel that I may need this if a "County Mountie" decides that he has me on a "Felony Collar" of a "Short Barreled Rifle Possession" charge.
Better to be Safe Than All Locked Up!!
ViggoG

Edward Tinker · 05-08-2003, 01:15 AM

ViggoG is referring to his 1906 AE Luger, one of the exempted ones with a correct combination.

And unless you have a gun that is "exempted", then don't buy a stock for your Luger.

It could just cause problems.

I have an artillery Luger and just because I have an arty, and I went to a range with a 4 inch Luger, I could be in deep trouble if my arty wasn't with me, or if I used the stock on my 4 inch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Just not worth it.

Anyway, sorry about all the negativity, so just be careful out there and Welcome!

vf1000ride · 05-08-2003, 06:38 AM

Yep well, this is why we ask these questions. I read the BATF web site for about 2 hours last night and only managed to give myself a migrane. Legal speak is above me. Thanks guys for the quick reply's. My poor little luger doesn't seem to be on any specialty list. What a shame. I think it would be neet to shoot it with the stock. Well now I am just gonna have to find myself an artilery model so I can have one legaly. Thanks again.

John Sabato · 05-08-2003, 10:47 AM

Let me add one fact about legality... The above advice is all true... but there is an exception.

In order to legally attach a stock to a Luger pistol that is not on the ATF C&R exemption list, under the National Firearms Act of 1934, you must apply to create a "short barreled rifle" or SBR. A SBR is defined as a shoulder fired firearm with a barrel less than 16 (sixteen) inches.

The resulting SBR would from that time on be considered a registered Class III type weapon under the NFA. You must pay a $200 tax when you make your application to create the SBR and it must be approved BEFORE you actually attach the stock.

Personally, I would not even have in my possession a Luger with a barrel less than 16 inches and a stock capable of attaching to this Luger until such time as you have received approval to create the SBR. To do so might be considered "constructive intent" to create an unregistered SBR by an overzealous ATF agent... since all you would have to do is slip them together and tighten the latch to actually create the SBR.

Err on the side of caution in this area... to make a mistake could mean federal jail time and a very large fine.

If you subsequently sell the combination to someone else, they would also have to pay a transfer tax, but I am not sure if that would be $5.00 or $200.00...

If you have any other questions I would be glad to try and answer them

vf1000ride · 05-08-2003, 07:43 PM

I read into the BATF website some more today. And with your help either it is begining to make sence or my head is just gonna pop. If the gun is on the exempt list you can put the stock onto it. If not then you have to go about it with the $200 tax and the SBR thing. If you get it registered as a SBR do you then always have to use the gun with the stock? Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list. There are just so many guns that I want, so little money left after buying the ammo for the ones I have. Yep well, putting in the overtime for a while. Thanks for all your help.

Edward Tinker · 05-08-2003, 09:03 PM

Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list.

Yup.

Work some overtime for me too, I'll send you my list

Ed

Aaron · 05-08-2003, 09:46 PM

I was once also hooked on shooting a stocked pistol, but wisely decided to stay away from shoulder fired Lugers (too expensive and too scarce). I concentrated on broomhandles and Inglis HPs which are readily available with repro stocks and quite affordable. Stick to those and you will be a happy camper.

stymie · 05-08-2003, 10:05 PM

Aaron, unfortunately, repro stocks are NOT exempt on the Inglis HP as they must be original. Although it is often mentioned that repros are acceptable on the C-96, the BATFE C&R web-site states that they must be original as well. I have yet to see a ruling from NFA Branch giving them an exemption.

The other problem with *making* a SBR, entails the approval of a Form #1 & engraving the receiver in a conspicuous manner at a certain depth & height with the name of the *maker* & their city & state.

stymie · 05-08-2003, 10:31 PM

John... the *making tax* is $200 for a SBR.

stymie · 05-08-2003, 10:38 PM

The transfer of a SBR from class 3 dealer to class 3 dealer is tax exempt. A SBR transfer tax to an individual or 03 C&R FFL is $200... $5 for an AOW.

vf1000ride · 05-08-2003, 10:43 PM

I had thought about the broomhandle as an alternative. I just don't think that the astetics of that gun are right for me. The hardest part of getting any of these guns that are kinda rare is that I am week. The gun would be fired on a regular basis. The luger I have now has seen many rounds. Last time I took an aproximate count, I came in at around 6,000 rounds. Heck my Ruger 10/22 has probly seen close to 20,000 rounds. I had fired two bricks in one day last year. If I could keep my finger off the trigger I could afford all these toys.

John Sabato · 05-09-2003, 10:07 AM

vf1000ride

In answer to your question further up the page... NO, you do no always have to use the stock with the pistol, but to be allowed to legally attach the stock to the pistol any time in it's life (or yours) you must have gone through the SBR creation, taxation, and registration process.

I am not sure if a process exists at ATF for "divorcing" the stock from the pistol once the registration has occured. For example, you get tired of the stock or decide that you could make a lot of money from selling it and not selling the pistol because you want to keep it. I think you may have to petition ATF to de-register the pistol as an SBR and convert it on paper back to being just a pistol... If you don't do this, you will probably have to go throught the Class III transfer process to get rid of it.

Thanks much goes to stymie for his NFA tax explanations.

John Sabato · 05-09-2003, 10:12 AM

Clarification on shoulder-stocked Browning High Powers...

Read the ATF list carefully, because not all of these pistols that CAN be equipped with a shoulder stock are exempted...

Here is the relevant portion of the BATF letter on such things:

Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock.

It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA.

stymie · 05-09-2003, 12:21 PM

Hi John... yes, the stock can be divorced from the pistol to *un-SBR* it, by writing a letter to your assigned examiner (no refund of the $200 *making tax*).

Navy · 05-09-2003, 12:26 PM

All,
Aren't you glad we don't get all the government we pay for?

Tom A

stymie · 05-09-2003, 12:26 PM

John... the letter that you are referencing ('81)... was overruled ('99).

Check these two links: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/w...f_letter58.txt

&: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/w...f_letter70.txt

stymie · 05-09-2003, 12:42 PM

It must be remembered that rulings can & often do change like the weather. One can inadvertently become a *felon* without any "intent" to do so. The responsibility is up to the individual gun owner to be fully aware of any changes.

NFA violations can result in a 10 year sentence & up to $250,000 in fines for each count. (It used to be only $10,000... lol)

05-07-2003, 10:51 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Unless your model was originally issued with a stock, you are SOL! (SO out of Luck) An Artillery Luger must have only an Artillery STock, a Navy stocked Luger must only have a Navy Stock, etc. The short Finnish Army version M23??? I think was issued with a stock but there are none made in 1921 that I am aware of. Even changing the barrel to make it look like an Artillery, then buying an Artillery stock is not legal as far as I know, to attached to the Luger. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-08-2003, 01:15 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	ViggoG is referring to his 1906 AE Luger, one of the exempted ones with a correct combination. And unless you have a gun that is "exempted", then don't buy a stock for your Luger. It could just cause problems. I have an artillery Luger and just because I have an arty, and I went to a range with a 4 inch Luger, I could be in deep trouble if my arty wasn't with me, or if I used the stock on my 4 inch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Just not worth it. Anyway, sorry about all the negativity, so just be careful out there and Welcome! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-08-2003, 10:47 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Let me add one fact about legality... The above advice is all true... but there is an exception. In order to legally attach a stock to a Luger pistol that is not on the ATF C&R exemption list, under the National Firearms Act of 1934, you must apply to create a "short barreled rifle" or SBR. A SBR is defined as a shoulder fired firearm with a barrel less than 16 (sixteen) inches. The resulting SBR would from that time on be considered a registered Class III type weapon under the NFA. You must pay a $200 tax when you make your application to create the SBR and it must be approved BEFORE you actually attach the stock. Personally, I would not even have in my possession a Luger with a barrel less than 16 inches and a stock capable of attaching to this Luger until such time as you have received approval to create the SBR. To do so might be considered "constructive intent" to create an unregistered SBR by an overzealous ATF agent... since all you would have to do is slip them together and tighten the latch to actually create the SBR. Err on the side of caution in this area... to make a mistake could mean federal jail time and a very large fine. If you subsequently sell the combination to someone else, they would also have to pay a transfer tax, but I am not sure if that would be $5.00 or $200.00... If you have any other questions I would be glad to try and answer them __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-08-2003, 09:03 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list. Yup. Work some overtime for me too, I'll send you my list Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-08-2003, 10:05 PM	#11
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Aaron, unfortunately, repro stocks are NOT exempt on the Inglis HP as they must be original. Although it is often mentioned that repros are acceptable on the C-96, the BATFE C&R web-site states that they must be original as well. I have yet to see a ruling from NFA Branch giving them an exemption. The other problem with making a SBR, entails the approval of a Form #1 & engraving the receiver in a conspicuous manner at a certain depth & height with the name of the maker & their city & state. __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

05-07-2003, 09:58 PM	#1
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	clapboard stock Howdy everyone. Got refered your way from the Battlerifles forum for this question. I have a 1921 luger that I would like to buy the stock for. What are the general requirements to keep me out of the hotseat with the law. It is a standard 3 inch barrel. 92XX V, for the serial. I have some photo's on my web page. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/vf1000...photo_page.htm I'm looking for the phone # of the BATF to ask them the same question. Thanks for any help you folks can give.

05-07-2003, 10:49 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,305 Times in 429 Posts	Hate to burst your bubble, but there is no stock which can be legally attached to your Luger. Only certain stocks can be attached to LP-08s (Artillery models), Navy models, and 1900-1902-1906 American Eagle models with particular grips. http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF2.html are in the information portion of this Lugerforum. They are the pertinent parts of the BATF regulations concerning Lugers and shoulder stocks. --Dwight

05-08-2003, 01:07 AM	#4
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	vf1000ride , Print out these Rulings and READ OVER and OVER!! I cannot be too emphatic about this. Many years in a Federal Lockup is the Penalty for an Error on your Part, Or If you are Very Lucky You may get by on being Bankrupted by Your Defense Lawyers Fees! I own a 1906 AE Luger that appears on the "Exempted List", and I have constructed a close resemblance to the "Ideal Shoulder Stock / Holster that meets every requirement of the "Rules", But I still am going to Write for a letter of clarification for my Holster Stock. I feel that I may need this if a "County Mountie" decides that he has me on a "Felony Collar" of a "Short Barreled Rifle Possession" charge. Better to be Safe Than All Locked Up!! ViggoG

05-08-2003, 06:38 AM	#6
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yep well, this is why we ask these questions. I read the BATF web site for about 2 hours last night and only managed to give myself a migrane. Legal speak is above me. Thanks guys for the quick reply's. My poor little luger doesn't seem to be on any specialty list. What a shame. I think it would be neet to shoot it with the stock. Well now I am just gonna have to find myself an artilery model so I can have one legaly. Thanks again.

05-08-2003, 07:43 PM	#8
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I read into the BATF website some more today. And with your help either it is begining to make sence or my head is just gonna pop. If the gun is on the exempt list you can put the stock onto it. If not then you have to go about it with the $200 tax and the SBR thing. If you get it registered as a SBR do you then always have to use the gun with the stock? Still seems easier to get a pistol that is on the exempt list. There are just so many guns that I want, so little money left after buying the ammo for the ones I have. Yep well, putting in the overtime for a while. Thanks for all your help.

05-08-2003, 09:46 PM	#10
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	I was once also hooked on shooting a stocked pistol, but wisely decided to stay away from shoulder fired Lugers (too expensive and too scarce). I concentrated on broomhandles and Inglis HPs which are readily available with repro stocks and quite affordable. Stick to those and you will be a happy camper.

05-08-2003, 10:31 PM	#12
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John... the making tax is $200 for a SBR. __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

05-08-2003, 10:38 PM	#13
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The transfer of a SBR from class 3 dealer to class 3 dealer is tax exempt. A SBR transfer tax to an individual or 03 C&R FFL is $200... $5 for an AOW. __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

05-08-2003, 10:43 PM	#14
vf1000ride User Join Date: May 2003 Location: columbus, Oh Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I had thought about the broomhandle as an alternative. I just don't think that the astetics of that gun are right for me. The hardest part of getting any of these guns that are kinda rare is that I am week. The gun would be fired on a regular basis. The luger I have now has seen many rounds. Last time I took an aproximate count, I came in at around 6,000 rounds. Heck my Ruger 10/22 has probly seen close to 20,000 rounds. I had fired two bricks in one day last year. If I could keep my finger off the trigger I could afford all these toys.

05-09-2003, 10:07 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	vf1000ride In answer to your question further up the page... NO, you do no always have to use the stock with the pistol, but to be allowed to legally attach the stock to the pistol any time in it's life (or yours) you must have gone through the SBR creation, taxation, and registration process. I am not sure if a process exists at ATF for "divorcing" the stock from the pistol once the registration has occured. For example, you get tired of the stock or decide that you could make a lot of money from selling it and not selling the pistol because you want to keep it. I think you may have to petition ATF to de-register the pistol as an SBR and convert it on paper back to being just a pistol... If you don't do this, you will probably have to go throught the Class III transfer process to get rid of it. Thanks much goes to stymie for his NFA tax explanations. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2003, 10:12 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Clarification on shoulder-stocked Browning High Powers... Read the ATF list carefully, because not all of these pistols that CAN be equipped with a shoulder stock are exempted... Here is the relevant portion of the BATF letter on such things: Therefore, any Luger or Browning Hi-Power pistol which would be removed from the purview of the NFA if equipped with an original shoulder stock, would also not be subject to the NFA is equipped with a reproduction shoulder stock which either duplicates or closely approximates the dimensions and configuration of the original stock. It must be pointed out that should one of the subject reproduction stocks be attached to any handgun which has not been specifically removed from the purview of the NFA with an original stock, the combination would be subject to all of the registration and transfer provisions of the NFA. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2003, 12:21 PM	#17
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John... yes, the stock can be divorced from the pistol to un-SBR it, by writing a letter to your assigned examiner (no refund of the $200 making tax). __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"

05-09-2003, 12:26 PM	#18
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Aren't you glad we don't get all the government we pay for? Tom A

05-09-2003, 12:42 PM	#20
stymie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: KC,MO USA Posts: 114 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It must be remembered that rulings can & often do change like the weather. One can inadvertently become a felon without any "intent" to do so. The responsibility is up to the individual gun owner to be fully aware of any changes. NFA violations can result in a 10 year sentence & up to $250,000 in fines for each count. (It used to be only $10,000... lol) __________________ "Irony can be pretty ironic!"