Need a critique of a K Date

[Doug G.]

Ok, I am looking at this Luger, I know something, but want others opinions before I make an offer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> The pics tell all. Also any value tips would be helpful.

[Doug G.]

Additional pics.

[ToggleTop]

Hello Doug,

I have this pistol recorded as being sold on Auction Arms and restored. It is a nice looking pistol. I have no mention of a matching magazine. Hope this helps. I own S/N 121a with no matching magazine.

Regards,

[Frank]

Doug, it appears to be a very nice K-Date. From the photos there seems to be little or no wear. Is it the photo or is it really that good? The condition of the magazine bottom and the general condition of the pistol don't seem to match!! I certainly would be cautious, but it could be legit. Not much help, I'm afraid. Good Luck!!

[minigun]

I too was thinking it looks "too good". Not much wear makes me kinda think things with these Lugers. Also, looks like two parts don't match. Looks like the safety bar and sear (I can't recall the names of these parts off hand) have different numbers. Or I could not be seeing this the same as everyone else.

[John Sabato]

I will say it looks like a nice one Doug... the spot on the sideplate bothers me a little is it cold blued in the top right hand corner? I can't quite tell if the gun has been refinished... but the rust blue is sure pretty if it is a rework. The rest of the finish looks superb. Can't tell from the photos just how much straw is left... they small parts look white on my screen like they have been polished clean...but that may just be the lighting and reflection...

What makes me feel like it has been refinished is the soft lines at the rear of the stock lug...and the scratch from the safety lever seems to have been blued over...

Proofs seem typical for a K-Date... It's got the Mauser hump at the rear of the frame...if there is something unusual about it, I haven't had enough coffee this morning for it to stand out...

Was that any help? Value? I guess it depends on how much you want it and whether or not it really has been refinished...

[Thor]

Interesting Safety markings, appears to have NO paint in there! Most Mauser Lugers will have transverse (not longitudinal) mill markings across the top of the front toggle link and breech block at the extractor. Many of the markings looked engraved touched up as they have sharp walls. A nice job of restoration in my book. The strawing seems too light but like JS said could be light reflection. My early strawing pictures looked that way too. The rear of the frame just above the lanyard loop should have up and down mill markings not across like DWMs. I dont see any pictures of that area to check this. Just my thoughts, I could be all wet!
Even restored, this pistol is worth quite a bit of money IMO, I have gotten some very substantial offers for my 1st Variation K date even though folks are told it is restored and the magazines were made to match the gun and are NOT original to it! Sear Bar appears to say 89 and not 19.

[Doug G.]

Ok, I will tell you that it has been refinished as Toggle Top has noted. When I first looked at this pistol it was hard to tell. The restorer (owner) refinished it and then rubbed it with a piece of soft leather to give it some wear. I noticed a few things that Ted picked up on. When you look at the B|90 mark on the barrel with a 10x loop it is quite evident that it was engraved. The magazine is a tough call, as it does not look like is have been ground and restamped. The owner told me that it was a rust bucket when he got it. I think I can get it for $1000, but am not sure if it is worth it.

[Thor]

Doug please see your PM

[ToggleTop]

Doug,

IMHO once a pistol is altered by changing the proofing (engraving) it becomes a fake. After all what else has been changed or engraved? My flame for this hobby is rapidly being extinguished by this type, and acceptance of a faked pistol. Now, having said that I feel a whee bit better.

If you laid pistol S/N 119a next to pistol S/N 121a you would have a hard time explaining some of the apparent differences. I feel sorry for the person that might buy it several years from now. I have always wondered why some of the K-dates I see restored have such prominent acceptance proofing. Now I know it has been fooled with (engraved). Of the five K-dates I have none of them have such proniment proofing as this pistol 119a. 119a pistol now goes on my list as a fake!

I hope someone else agrees with this opinion, if not this hobby has gone to hell in a hand basket!

Best Regards,
ToggleTop-Chester Volz

[John Sabato]

I agree with TT... this is a nice looking Luger, but if the gun has been refinished and the stamps have been altered... and perhaps changed in the process, then the gun has been 'boosted' and not restored...

As to the value of $1000. If the magazine has not been altered, and the holster is in really good shape, then it might reach that value even as a shooter, but certainly not on its own...

[Thor]

I doubt the stamps have been changed, just deepened to be more clear, a lot of time someone has attempted a bluing that ruined the stamps so they are brought back to look right, the K date I restored that was delivered today had to have the barrel reinstalled as it was really messed up and
and out of spec for chamber guage, Hugh fixed the barrel and I fixed the finish and now the owner is totally stoked about his gun.

[the gunman]

IMHO As we all know all these K dates are quite rare and quite expensive .I must say it sure is a nice rework job. I myself would be happy to pay 1000 for it .Even without the holster. I have yet to find a good one that I could afford or want to pay the price for. Would love to own it for that price. With what I feel to be real quality work. Again gentleman just my IMHO

[lugerholsterrepair]

I want to agree with TT Chester but I just cannot bring myself to do it. In my economic strata I will never be able to afford a K date at today's prices.$3000 to 5000 and who's to say they are ALL legit? This one would be a steal at $1000 and something the average guy could afford without mortgaging the farm. So, my decision would be, own this one or never own one? Hell yes , I would buy this one in a NY heartbeat and never look back.
Does this diminish Luger collecting? Maybe it does. I havn't quite thought it out completely. Is the pistol a fake? I don't think there are any proofs on it that wern't there the day it left the factory. People put white caulk into proofs to see them better...Does that make the pistol no good?
There is two ways to look at this...One is from the pure collector viewpoint and he would like to see it exactly like it left the factory floor. Who wouldn't? But, it is what it is , it's a K date and it looks pretty durn good. I would like to own it. Tough call....Jerry Burney

[Frank]

Jerry, I could not agree with you more.

There were about 11000 K-Dates produced, give or take a few. I know there are at least six variations (Still says 5). There are only about 1700 1st Variations. There many are fewer transition between the 1st an 3rd Variation. So if you can get any of these pistols, in whatever condition (at a price commenserate with the condition) it may be worth considering. As an example, Simpson's Limited is advertising a "mint" 1st Variation Rig for $13,500

Thor has restored two of my K-Dates. The first was a 1st Variation pitted mess, but totally matching, except the magazine. The condition was so poor, Thor had to have the WaA Marks re-established, along with several proof marks. The second was a 3rd Variation, again all matching, except the magazine, that someone had "sanded or polished down" the receiver and cold blued that part. Thor established the position of the WaA Marks and had the engraver duplicate them.

I firmly believe that the restoration will always be obvious, but the pistol is as close as possible to the condition in which it left the factory.

I wish that I could get all these variations in mint condition, but no one knows how many of these pistols are even around today.

I for one will look for the missing K-Dates and will always consider an upgrade to an original. Even so, the restored K-Dates are still worth a pretty penny, at least IMHO!!!

[Pete Ebbink]

I thought the depth of the serial number on the left side of the receiver and the side plate were not deeep enough when I first looked at the photos. Since the seller said it was really rusty, I would imagine some metal sanding/polishing occurred in these areas to account for the lack of stamp depth.

For a restoration, I think it is a nice one. There was another K-Date restored piece for sale at the recent SE NAPCA event that was not done as nicely as this one with an asking price of $ 1250.00...if I remember correctly.

Considering doggy, mis-matched shooters in my local CA-State guns shops sell for $ 950-975...this K-Date price seems reasonable...IMHO.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Doug G.]

Ok, I am officially out of the running for this gun. I just laid out $$ for another 1900 AE and and swearing off the Nazi era guns. The contact information is 217-585-1911 11-6pm CST talk to John. He is not the owner of the gun, but is selling it for the owner. Just tell him where you got his number from. I feel that he is going to want in the $1300 $1400 range for the gun, but is open to offers. his email is mailto:gunsmith45@aol.comgunsmith45@aol.com</a>
Good luck.
PS: John is 110% trustworthy, but he does love 1911's too much!

[Dwight Gruber]

Doug,

When you get your 1900AE don't foget to send me all of its information for my survey!

--Dwight

[Doug G.]

No problem will do and will also post pics on the forum.

[Motown]

OK, how about a few tips on how tell a rework- I own a K date- late 3 digit 'a' serial # w/matching mag- now I'm in the market for a G date (wife thinks I'm nuts... you already have one of those... owe ye of little faith...)

Semper Fidelis.