New Acquisition

10-19-2003, 05:28 PM

Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Will and I am an SP with the USAF stationed in Montana. I've been in for 4yrs and have been collecting C&R firearms for 3yrs. I usually sit back and read all the post trying to up my knowledge. I would like to thank you all for the knowledge you share. This is my 3rd luger a 1918/1920 double dated DWM, It is all matching except for the grips. The 2 magazines are also matching but they look forced matched but not sure, (one is a WWII issued mag). I also acquired an original holster, cleaning rod. I got it all for $450.00 was wondering if this was a good deal. I have placed a pic.

Edward Tinker · 10-19-2003, 06:10 PM

Hello Will, Great Falls is a nice town, I still have 10 acres half way between Helena and Great Falls.

$450 is a good deal, as "shooter" reblued ones go for that price.

The holster looks like the Ballester Molina 45 ACP (looks essentially like a 1911A1), and I paid only $35 for mine, but "matching" mags can drive the price up on a collectable Luger. A 1918/1920 is a Weimar rework (sometimes reblued, sometimes left completly alone, just the 1920 markings). It is fairly common for magazines to be replaced with aluminum mags, in the 1930's.

What other markings are on the gun?

What markings are on the magazines? A plus sign, a 1 or 2, or?

I don't beleive that is a cleaning rod for a Luger, looks like one for a 1911A1 and the "oil" or other containter is interesting?

Thanks for serving, there are other Vets on this forum, I am retired Army, and there are several others.

Ed

10-19-2003, 06:49 PM

On the pistol its self there is no other number except near the barrel serial number and import mark 8.83, It has the DWM military markings and one one the barrel on the left hand side
There is a 14 on the inside of the holster in a circle, with the word "kontroeler" and i can't read the rest. here is a pic of the mark. There is also 3 crowns on the flap near the buckle but can't get a good pic of them. They are in the shape of a triangle Two on top and One on the bottom.

Thanks for all your help

10-19-2003, 07:28 PM

Thank you for the reply's and the information, I appreciate it. I learn something new every day.

Will

Edward Tinker · 10-19-2003, 08:32 PM

Thanks Tac for the correction, (still looks like the Argentina holster I have)

Ed

Herb · 10-19-2003, 10:46 PM

A little more info, the magazine on the left is a fxo extruded mag, notice the pin thru the center of the base. This mag was first introduced about 40 years after the date on your Luger so any 'matching' numbers on it are 'forced' or in other words faked. I can't comment on the other, not enough detail in the pic is there an eagle over a number on the base? At any rate, the price you paid is really good, especially considering the items that came with it. The two magazines alone would cost you around $150 or so on EBay, so basically you got the Luger for $300, Great buy at any time, I wish I could find them at that price.

MauserLugers · 10-20-2003, 01:01 AM

Hi Herb,
Your statement about being 40 years after the date of the Luger makes this a forced match is not necessarily correct. Since this was a reworked Luger and it isn't clear if it was issued to the police as you can not tell if it has a police sear safety which were added starting in 1933. It is very possible that blue fxo magazines were issued to these Weimar/Nazi police Lugers clear up to 1942 as new replacement magazines from the police depots.

When dating stuff you can not lump them all into one batch and have a general rule for everything. Military Lugers have a certain magazine issued with them and and replacements would have a code (example 42 or S/42 on the base), while police have a different magazine and Weimar Lugers have different magazines and more options. In this case there is a possibility that a blue fxo magazine could very well have been issued to this Luger by a German police depot pryor to the end of 1942. -- Bill

Doubs · 10-20-2003, 01:59 AM

Fellows, am I missing something here? What makes it a "rework"? The double date doesn't as the "1920" is a Weimar Republic property mark that was applied at unit level by armorers to government-owned guns and is pretty crudely stamped in most cases. Nothing in the description of the pistol indicates that it's a rework as it's said to have all matching numbers. The magazines are newer but could have been matched to the pistol any time after they were manufactured.

Close-up, sharp pictures and a better description would help to determine if it's original or has been altered beyond the property stamp.

10-20-2003, 08:04 AM

Thanks again for all the posts, I am posting to the missile field for a week, I'll be back on Friday so I will post some more pics of the mags when I get back.

the gunman · 10-20-2003, 10:16 AM

Hi The holster belongs to the swedish lahti model
1940 .never made for the luger .I have 2 of these
with the guns .yhe rod is also for the lahti and is
orignal to the holster

saxman · 10-20-2003, 12:47 PM

Doubs; Would you expand a little on the Weimar 1920 property mark? I have a 40xxh DWM with the 1920 mark, and would like to know more about it, such as at what point in processing the pistol it was put on.

Pete Ebbink · 10-20-2003, 12:58 PM

Hello Fellows,

Maybe I am wrong here...but that holster looks like it belongs to a Swedish or Finnish Lahti-type pistol and not to a luger...???

See Bender's small book ("Military Holsters of WWII"), on pages 173-174.

Oops...! Sorry...TAC...just saw that you already caught the holster ID...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Doubs · 10-21-2003, 12:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by saxman:
Doubs; Would you expand a little on the Weimar 1920 property mark? I have a 40xxh DWM with the 1920 mark, and would like to know more about it, such as at what point in processing the pistol it was put on.

<hr /></blockquote>Saxman, there are several pages in Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" devoted to the Lugers used by the Weimar Republic and there's quite a bit on the 1920 property stamps. A footnote on page 25 indicates that Jan Still considers the simple application of the 1920 property mark to be a "rework". While I've always thought of it more along the lines of a unit marking, I respect Jan's opinion and expertise and accept his definition. That, I suppose, answers my own question in my earlier post.

If your Luger has a suffix of "h", then it is almost surely an Imperial Luger that has had the original date removed and the 1920 property stamp added, judging from your picture. The stamp is neater than most I've seen but not as evenly spaced as a factory date stamp. Some early, undated Lugers, were also stamped 1920 and will show no evidence of having an earlier date removed. Other Lugers of Imperial manufacture will show the original date plus the 1920 in front of the original date. These are the "Double Date" Lugers and there are some showing "1920 1920" or "1920 1921".... Weimar era manufacture with a date stamp plus a property stamp. Lugers with an actual manufacture date of 1920 or 1921 are not too common.

The Weimar Republic had a problem with civilians stealing military or government property so they devised the property stamp of "1920" as a means of identifying Weimar property and preventing theft.

The 1920 stamps were applied in the field by unit armorers and that's why the marks were often crudely stamped and font sizes vary. The marks were applied beginning in August, 1920, at the direction of the Reichsweir, or German Armed Forces. They were sometimes applied to guns manufactured during the early Nazi period and Jan's book shows a "G" date Luger so stamped. This, however, is very rare and not the norm.

You may want to buy a copy of Jan's book for the full story.

Edward Tinker · 10-21-2003, 12:15 AM

Doubs, you are correct in what you first said about the 1920. Jan and I have spoken on this on several occassions, as I am interested in
Weimar Police. He said that it first was thought to be a rework, but it is as you stated, mroe of a 1920 property mark, and it CAN be on reworks, but not always. Also, some reworks were heavily redone, while others might "only" have received the 1920, so only a rework in the sense that a gov't arsenal or local armorer restamped the marking on it.

Ed

Doubs · 10-21-2003, 12:42 AM

Ed, thank you for the clarification. I guess Jan has gathered additional information since his book was published. I once owned a 1918 - 1920 double date in the "h" block (I have a picture of it somewhere) and except for the added "1920", it was 100% original and matching... not a rework at all. According to the importer the guns had come from a former Eastern Bloc country and in "Imperial Lugers" Jan has no examples reported of 1918 "h" block pistols.

The only reason I mentioned the "rework" thing is because I can't look at the Luger in the first post and tell if it's been reworked or not. It looks awfully nice and my first thought was "refinished" but even that can't be seen with any certainty.

BTW, your police pistol collection must be getting pretty large by now. I think you've found a niche that most collectors have ignored and you should be able to find lots of prospects. Good going.

MauserLugers · 10-21-2003, 01:02 AM

The Weimar Lugers were almost all reworked to some degree. Examples of this would be most have the rear connecting pin numbered, and a holdopen added if an early variation. Almost all of these Weimar Lugers eventually became Nazi era Lugers, thus most were reworked at some time, or a couple of times. -- Bill

Dwight Gruber · 10-21-2003, 02:47 AM

Its hard to tell whether or not the property stamp has "halo", which would indicate whether it was stamped through the existing finish or stamped and then refinished. Maybe we can hope for a more determinative photo.

My own take on the application of the mark itself is that it is most analogous to Russian or East German markings, indicating that the gun has been 'appropriated' to another organization.

--Dwight

saxman · 10-21-2003, 10:01 AM

No halo on mine, as it was obviously refinished after the original date was ground off and the property mark stamped. Rather nice job, expertly re-contoured to match the original curve, and blended in on the sides just right, with no tool marks visible. The tell-tale is the obvious thinning of steel on the chamber top when viewed from the muzzle end. The finish appears to be rust blue, not a 'black' salt blue, and there is very little evidence of buffing, although the edges are not quite as sharp as an original finish. I have seen many East-Bloc reworks, and this is not one of them. The only proofs on the pistol are Weimar, and one is visible in my picture on the barrel, just like number 31 in the Technical Section. The three proofs on the right side of the frame are the same.
Thanks to Doubs and others for the info. I am finally, with your help, zeroing in on this pistol. The only thing still remaining is date of manufacture, but at least I know it was in the pre-WWII era.

Dwight Gruber · 10-21-2003, 12:06 PM

Saxman,

"Thinning of the chamber top" by itself is not a reliable indicator of a ground chamber date.

It is true that early Lugers have a circular chamber profile, concentric with the barrel. At some point in Luger production this was changed, the chamber profile became 'flattened' compared to the barrel, giving the appearance one would expect if the chamber were ground.

I ran into an article in AutoMag in which someone did a survey to determine when the change occurred, regrettably I cannot track down the reference at the moment. A quick examination of a couple of my own Lugers shows that the chamber profile change occurred as early as the 06 model.

--Dwight

Doubs · 10-21-2003, 12:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by saxman:
No halo on mine, as it was obviously refinished after the original date was ground off and the property mark stamped. Rather nice job, expertly re-contoured to match the original curve, and blended in on the sides just right, with no tool marks visible. <hr /></blockquote>I have an Erfurt post-war rework in .30 caliber that has had the date removed. It, too, was done exceptionally well and the rust blue refinish blended nicely with the original finish. The area of the refinish is polished slightly better than the original factory finish and the receiver is thinner on top. There's no question that a date was removed as Erfurt made only dated receivers. Other than the barrel change and date removal, the remainder of the pistol is matching and original. The receiver is notched and the original finish is not up to 1914 Erfurt standards so it's obviously a late 1916, 1917 or 1918 manufacture.

10-19-2003, 05:28 PM	#1
Arst0ck Guest Posts: n/a	New Acquisition Let me start by introducing myself. My name is Will and I am an SP with the USAF stationed in Montana. I've been in for 4yrs and have been collecting C&R firearms for 3yrs. I usually sit back and read all the post trying to up my knowledge. I would like to thank you all for the knowledge you share. This is my 3rd luger a 1918/1920 double dated DWM, It is all matching except for the grips. The 2 magazines are also matching but they look forced matched but not sure, (one is a WWII issued mag). I also acquired an original holster, cleaning rod. I got it all for $450.00 was wondering if this was a good deal. I have placed a pic.

10-19-2003, 06:10 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Hello Will, Great Falls is a nice town, I still have 10 acres half way between Helena and Great Falls. $450 is a good deal, as "shooter" reblued ones go for that price. The holster looks like the Ballester Molina 45 ACP (looks essentially like a 1911A1), and I paid only $35 for mine, but "matching" mags can drive the price up on a collectable Luger. A 1918/1920 is a Weimar rework (sometimes reblued, sometimes left completly alone, just the 1920 markings). It is fairly common for magazines to be replaced with aluminum mags, in the 1930's. What other markings are on the gun? What markings are on the magazines? A plus sign, a 1 or 2, or? I don't beleive that is a cleaning rod for a Luger, looks like one for a 1911A1 and the "oil" or other containter is interesting? Thanks for serving, there are other Vets on this forum, I am retired Army, and there are several others. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-19-2003, 08:32 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Thanks Tac for the correction, (still looks like the Argentina holster I have) Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-19-2003, 10:46 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A little more info, the magazine on the left is a fxo extruded mag, notice the pin thru the center of the base. This mag was first introduced about 40 years after the date on your Luger so any 'matching' numbers on it are 'forced' or in other words faked. I can't comment on the other, not enough detail in the pic is there an eagle over a number on the base? At any rate, the price you paid is really good, especially considering the items that came with it. The two magazines alone would cost you around $150 or so on EBay, so basically you got the Luger for $300, Great buy at any time, I wish I could find them at that price. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-20-2003, 12:47 PM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs; Would you expand a little on the Weimar 1920 property mark? I have a 40xxh DWM with the 1920 mark, and would like to know more about it, such as at what point in processing the pistol it was put on. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-19-2003, 06:49 PM	#3
Arst0ck Guest Posts: n/a	On the pistol its self there is no other number except near the barrel serial number and import mark 8.83, It has the DWM military markings and one one the barrel on the left hand side There is a 14 on the inside of the holster in a circle, with the word "kontroeler" and i can't read the rest. here is a pic of the mark. There is also 3 crowns on the flap near the buckle but can't get a good pic of them. They are in the shape of a triangle Two on top and One on the bottom. Thanks for all your help

10-19-2003, 07:28 PM	#4
Arst0ck Guest Posts: n/a	Thank you for the reply's and the information, I appreciate it. I learn something new every day. Will

10-20-2003, 01:01 AM	#7
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi Herb, Your statement about being 40 years after the date of the Luger makes this a forced match is not necessarily correct. Since this was a reworked Luger and it isn't clear if it was issued to the police as you can not tell if it has a police sear safety which were added starting in 1933. It is very possible that blue fxo magazines were issued to these Weimar/Nazi police Lugers clear up to 1942 as new replacement magazines from the police depots. When dating stuff you can not lump them all into one batch and have a general rule for everything. Military Lugers have a certain magazine issued with them and and replacements would have a code (example 42 or S/42 on the base), while police have a different magazine and Weimar Lugers have different magazines and more options. In this case there is a possibility that a blue fxo magazine could very well have been issued to this Luger by a German police depot pryor to the end of 1942. -- Bill

10-20-2003, 01:59 AM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	Fellows, am I missing something here? What makes it a "rework"? The double date doesn't as the "1920" is a Weimar Republic property mark that was applied at unit level by armorers to government-owned guns and is pretty crudely stamped in most cases. Nothing in the description of the pistol indicates that it's a rework as it's said to have all matching numbers. The magazines are newer but could have been matched to the pistol any time after they were manufactured. Close-up, sharp pictures and a better description would help to determine if it's original or has been altered beyond the property stamp.

10-20-2003, 08:04 AM	#9
Arst0ck Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks again for all the posts, I am posting to the missile field for a week, I'll be back on Friday so I will post some more pics of the mags when I get back.

10-20-2003, 10:16 AM	#10
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Hi The holster belongs to the swedish lahti model 1940 .never made for the luger .I have 2 of these with the guns .yhe rod is also for the lahti and is orignal to the holster

10-20-2003, 12:58 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Fellows, Maybe I am wrong here...but that holster looks like it belongs to a Swedish or Finnish Lahti-type pistol and not to a luger...??? See Bender's small book ("Military Holsters of WWII"), on pages 173-174. Oops...! Sorry...TAC...just saw that you already caught the holster ID... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-21-2003, 12:09 AM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by saxman: <strong>Doubs; Would you expand a little on the Weimar 1920 property mark? I have a 40xxh DWM with the 1920 mark, and would like to know more about it, such as at what point in processing the pistol it was put on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Saxman, there are several pages in Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" devoted to the Lugers used by the Weimar Republic and there's quite a bit on the 1920 property stamps. A footnote on page 25 indicates that Jan Still considers the simple application of the 1920 property mark to be a "rework". While I've always thought of it more along the lines of a unit marking, I respect Jan's opinion and expertise and accept his definition. That, I suppose, answers my own question in my earlier post. If your Luger has a suffix of "h", then it is almost surely an Imperial Luger that has had the original date removed and the 1920 property stamp added, judging from your picture. The stamp is neater than most I've seen but not as evenly spaced as a factory date stamp. Some early, undated Lugers, were also stamped 1920 and will show no evidence of having an earlier date removed. Other Lugers of Imperial manufacture will show the original date plus the 1920 in front of the original date. These are the "Double Date" Lugers and there are some showing "1920 1920" or "1920 1921".... Weimar era manufacture with a date stamp plus a property stamp. Lugers with an actual manufacture date of 1920 or 1921 are not too common. The Weimar Republic had a problem with civilians stealing military or government property so they devised the property stamp of "1920" as a means of identifying Weimar property and preventing theft. The 1920 stamps were applied in the field by unit armorers and that's why the marks were often crudely stamped and font sizes vary. The marks were applied beginning in August, 1920, at the direction of the Reichsweir, or German Armed Forces. They were sometimes applied to guns manufactured during the early Nazi period and Jan's book shows a "G" date Luger so stamped. This, however, is very rare and not the norm. You may want to buy a copy of Jan's book for the full story.

10-21-2003, 12:15 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Doubs, you are correct in what you first said about the 1920. Jan and I have spoken on this on several occassions, as I am interested in Weimar Police. He said that it first was thought to be a rework, but it is as you stated, mroe of a 1920 property mark, and it CAN be on reworks, but not always. Also, some reworks were heavily redone, while others might "only" have received the 1920, so only a rework in the sense that a gov't arsenal or local armorer restamped the marking on it. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-21-2003, 12:42 AM	#15
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	Ed, thank you for the clarification. I guess Jan has gathered additional information since his book was published. I once owned a 1918 - 1920 double date in the "h" block (I have a picture of it somewhere) and except for the added "1920", it was 100% original and matching... not a rework at all. According to the importer the guns had come from a former Eastern Bloc country and in "Imperial Lugers" Jan has no examples reported of 1918 "h" block pistols. The only reason I mentioned the "rework" thing is because I can't look at the Luger in the first post and tell if it's been reworked or not. It looks awfully nice and my first thought was "refinished" but even that can't be seen with any certainty. BTW, your police pistol collection must be getting pretty large by now. I think you've found a niche that most collectors have ignored and you should be able to find lots of prospects. Good going.

10-21-2003, 01:02 AM	#16
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	The Weimar Lugers were almost all reworked to some degree. Examples of this would be most have the rear connecting pin numbered, and a holdopen added if an early variation. Almost all of these Weimar Lugers eventually became Nazi era Lugers, thus most were reworked at some time, or a couple of times. -- Bill

10-21-2003, 02:47 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Its hard to tell whether or not the property stamp has "halo", which would indicate whether it was stamped through the existing finish or stamped and then refinished. Maybe we can hope for a more determinative photo. My own take on the application of the mark itself is that it is most analogous to Russian or East German markings, indicating that the gun has been 'appropriated' to another organization. --Dwight

10-21-2003, 10:01 AM	#18
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No halo on mine, as it was obviously refinished after the original date was ground off and the property mark stamped. Rather nice job, expertly re-contoured to match the original curve, and blended in on the sides just right, with no tool marks visible. The tell-tale is the obvious thinning of steel on the chamber top when viewed from the muzzle end. The finish appears to be rust blue, not a 'black' salt blue, and there is very little evidence of buffing, although the edges are not quite as sharp as an original finish. I have seen many East-Bloc reworks, and this is not one of them. The only proofs on the pistol are Weimar, and one is visible in my picture on the barrel, just like number 31 in the Technical Section. The three proofs on the right side of the frame are the same. Thanks to Doubs and others for the info. I am finally, with your help, zeroing in on this pistol. The only thing still remaining is date of manufacture, but at least I know it was in the pre-WWII era. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-21-2003, 12:06 PM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Saxman, "Thinning of the chamber top" by itself is not a reliable indicator of a ground chamber date. It is true that early Lugers have a circular chamber profile, concentric with the barrel. At some point in Luger production this was changed, the chamber profile became 'flattened' compared to the barrel, giving the appearance one would expect if the chamber were ground. I ran into an article in AutoMag in which someone did a survey to determine when the change occurred, regrettably I cannot track down the reference at the moment. A quick examination of a couple of my own Lugers shows that the chamber profile change occurred as early as the 06 model. --Dwight

10-21-2003, 12:32 PM	#20
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,735 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by saxman: <strong>No halo on mine, as it was obviously refinished after the original date was ground off and the property mark stamped. Rather nice job, expertly re-contoured to match the original curve, and blended in on the sides just right, with no tool marks visible. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I have an Erfurt post-war rework in .30 caliber that has had the date removed. It, too, was done exceptionally well and the rust blue refinish blended nicely with the original finish. The area of the refinish is polished slightly better than the original factory finish and the receiver is thinner on top. There's no question that a date was removed as Erfurt made only dated receivers. Other than the barrel change and date removal, the remainder of the pistol is matching and original. The receiver is notched and the original finish is not up to 1914 Erfurt standards so it's obviously a late 1916, 1917 or 1918 manufacture.