DWM Military Lugers-Front Sights

Thor · 07-08-2004, 06:48 PM

A question for the Collectors of Military DWM Lugers. Some of these Lugers that show up here at my shop for restoration have what I would deem original fire blued front sights, some look rust blued. Any opinion of how there were orginially done is appreciated.

John Sabato · 07-09-2004, 09:53 AM

Thor, it might be beneficial for you to post two photos comparing the two types of blueing on front sights so that any owner of a DWM gun could reply... this could be an interesting study!

Thor · 07-09-2004, 10:06 AM

Unfortunately John, this will now have to be an ongoing study as I have not noticed it until recently. So many of my guns have the front sight rust blued that maybe it was just an anomoly, but we can sure start the study today.

RockinWR · 07-09-2004, 01:50 PM

Ted,
* FWIW: Just a consideration as you do your study. It suggests there might not be a clean answer to your quest.
* Refer to J. Walter's, The Luger Book, Pgs. 32 & 213 for background.
* Per J. Walter: "The Kreigsministerium discovered a poor point-blank shooting of some P.08's was attributable to the variable height of the front sight and the lack of sighting-in before the pistols left the factory. 'Point-sight' range varied between 80 to 120 meters, which was clearly unacceptible".
* Consequently, the front sight of all Pre-1914 Lugers was to be changed to standardize the "point-sight" range. The Kreigsministerium initially specified a fire blued 15.8 +/-0.3mm tall front sight; but, eventually settled on a 15.4 +/-0.3mm tall sight. Sight was to be checked/changed when the hold-open was added by Erfurt sometime after the 6 May, 1913 directive.
* Walter goes on to say: "Guns already fitted with the hold open could be re-sighted by the Regimental Armourers.....". We have examples (grip strap Unit marks) of how budget/time/training contingencies forced Armourers into inconsistencies when implementing Directives.
* Prussian guns are reported to have been converted by Erfurt in mid-1913. Bravarian issued guns are open to question whether they were collected/converted by Erfurt due to WWI's start in 1914. Saxony and Wuerttemberg Army corps are not mentioned. Officer private purchase conversions are essentially undocumented.
* My thought is some P.08 front sights were changed by Erfurt(fire blued per 1913 Directive), some not as they were OK(fire blued as issued), and many were expediently substituted/filed and rust blued when factory replacement sights/shipment times were not avaialble(Armourer converted).
* We then have 90 years of soldiers/owners who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn @ 10 paces. I WAG many preferred/directed front sights to be "fine tuned" to improve their performance. After all it has to be the gun that's a bad shooter.....RIGHT??
Respectfully,
Bob

Thor · 07-09-2004, 02:07 PM

Thanks Bob, I dont have that reference so it is GREATLY appreciated that you mentioned it! Thank you!

Dwight Gruber · 07-09-2004, 09:44 PM

Bob and Thor,

Don't forget, a 'witness mark' was applied to the front sight/sight base "after adjustment", according to the 1910 marking regulations. This may prove useful as you examine Lugers in tracking this situation down.

Bob, thanks much for making that interesting and thoughtful post. And Thor, "The Luger Book" is a very useful reference, its worthwhile tracking a copy down.

--Dwight

saxman · 07-12-2004, 09:54 PM

My 1920 DWM (property date?) has the rust-blued sight blade, a perfectly aligned front sight witness mark and a "1" on the muzzle end of the sight base. The rust blue matches the rest of the pistol. The sight blade shows no indication of filing, but German armorers were extremely good and you can't always find evidence of their work.

07-08-2004, 06:48 PM	#1
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	DWM Military Lugers-Front Sights A question for the Collectors of Military DWM Lugers. Some of these Lugers that show up here at my shop for restoration have what I would deem original fire blued front sights, some look rust blued. Any opinion of how there were orginially done is appreciated. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-09-2004, 09:53 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thor, it might be beneficial for you to post two photos comparing the two types of blueing on front sights so that any owner of a DWM gun could reply... this could be an interesting study! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-09-2004, 10:06 AM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Unfortunately John, this will now have to be an ongoing study as I have not noticed it until recently. So many of my guns have the front sight rust blued that maybe it was just an anomoly, but we can sure start the study today. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-09-2004, 02:07 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Thanks Bob, I dont have that reference so it is GREATLY appreciated that you mentioned it! Thank you! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-12-2004, 09:54 PM	#7
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My 1920 DWM (property date?) has the rust-blued sight blade, a perfectly aligned front sight witness mark and a "1" on the muzzle end of the sight base. The rust blue matches the rest of the pistol. The sight blade shows no indication of filing, but German armorers were extremely good and you can't always find evidence of their work. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

07-09-2004, 01:50 PM	#4
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Ted, * FWIW: Just a consideration as you do your study. It suggests there might not be a clean answer to your quest. * Refer to J. Walter's, The Luger Book, Pgs. 32 & 213 for background. * Per J. Walter: "The Kreigsministerium discovered a poor point-blank shooting of some P.08's was attributable to the variable height of the front sight and the lack of sighting-in before the pistols left the factory. 'Point-sight' range varied between 80 to 120 meters, which was clearly unacceptible". * Consequently, the front sight of all Pre-1914 Lugers was to be changed to standardize the "point-sight" range. The Kreigsministerium initially specified a fire blued 15.8 +/-0.3mm tall front sight; but, eventually settled on a 15.4 +/-0.3mm tall sight. Sight was to be checked/changed when the hold-open was added by Erfurt sometime after the 6 May, 1913 directive. * Walter goes on to say: "Guns already fitted with the hold open could be re-sighted by the Regimental Armourers.....". We have examples (grip strap Unit marks) of how budget/time/training contingencies forced Armourers into inconsistencies when implementing Directives. * Prussian guns are reported to have been converted by Erfurt in mid-1913. Bravarian issued guns are open to question whether they were collected/converted by Erfurt due to WWI's start in 1914. Saxony and Wuerttemberg Army corps are not mentioned. Officer private purchase conversions are essentially undocumented. * My thought is some P.08 front sights were changed by Erfurt(fire blued per 1913 Directive), some not as they were OK(fire blued as issued), and many were expediently substituted/filed and rust blued when factory replacement sights/shipment times were not avaialble(Armourer converted). * We then have 90 years of soldiers/owners who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn @ 10 paces. I WAG many preferred/directed front sights to be "fine tuned" to improve their performance. After all it has to be the gun that's a bad shooter.....RIGHT?? Respectfully, Bob

07-09-2004, 09:44 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Bob and Thor, Don't forget, a 'witness mark' was applied to the front sight/sight base "after adjustment", according to the 1910 marking regulations. This may prove useful as you examine Lugers in tracking this situation down. Bob, thanks much for making that interesting and thoughtful post. And Thor, "The Luger Book" is a very useful reference, its worthwhile tracking a copy down. --Dwight