Problem with 1940 Mauser Banner Police

Aaron · 08-30-2002, 08:46 PM

I have a superb (99.9%)1940 Mauser Banner police, completely matching including magazine, grips, etc. Disassembly is very difficult, as the barrel/toggle assembly fits so tightly that it takes a very firm pull to slide it off the frame. To reinstall the assembly it is necessary to firmy push on the muzzle to slide it on the frame. It was once suggested that a replacement barrel may have been installed and the frame was twisted in the process. There is absolutely no indication that this is a replacement barrel. Is it possible tolerances were built extra tight on this pistol? Any other ideas?

Herb · 08-30-2002, 09:09 PM

Aaron, I had the same problem with my Erfurt. I used an inside caliper and found that the forward inside measurements of the cannon rails was 13mm and the rear was 11.5mm, my guess is a previous owner may have dropped it and then stepped on it squeezing the rails together at the rear. I used a wooden wedge inserted at the rear and forced the rear portion of the rails out to 18mm and then let it set overnight. It worked, both measure 13mm now. You might check to see if yours are also squeezed together at the rear.

Aaron · 08-30-2002, 09:56 PM

Thanks, Herb. Will get my electronic calipers out and check the measurements right away.

Herb · 08-30-2002, 10:11 PM

WOW, electronic calipers?? Up here in Utah I use plastic ones that I got for $1.95 in a surplus store. Let me know what you find. Hmmm, electronic calipers.

Roadkill · 08-30-2002, 10:14 PM

Hey guys, don't mean to be contrary but they might have been intended to be that way, my 1918 Erfurt is so tight it hums like a tuning fork when the bolt/toggle is pulled out. Also takes determination to get it back in. I was using lapping compound to smooth out the mismatched bolt
& rails and had to reattach toggle & pin for it to slide at all. Herb, is this a shooter and does it work ok?

RK

Herb · 08-30-2002, 10:25 PM

RK, if they were made that way then all of my other Lugers are screwed up, they all measure 13mm down the whole rail length. Shooter, maybe, it's a 1912 Erfurt matching less firing pin and mag. Was chromed, off to shop in Florida to be stripped and reblued. I doubt that I will ever shoot it, just admire it. I have others like it that I never shoot, a 1916 DWM long barrel matching less barrel and mag, an undated Simpson matching less mag, and of course the 'Mystery Bulgarian' matching less side plate and mag. Anyway, I don't think the toggles would slide very good in a diminishing area and would put a lot of increased pressure on the main spring in order to make the return to battery. Awaiting Aaron's results.

Roadkill · 08-31-2002, 07:33 AM

Herb, thanks, its hard to have perspective with just one gun. For all I know they all are like it. I bought a set of electronic calipers off ebay for $24.95 from a warehouse distributor a few weeks ago. Very well made and I can SEE the little numbers on the screen.

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...ronic+calipers

Check this out.

RK

Thor · 08-31-2002, 07:59 AM

I believe that there should not be extra tightness and the receiver forks should be parallel. A good indication that the forks are out of alignment (this can cause more "tightness" also) is if you take the barreled receiver and set it on a table or bench WITHOUT the toggle assembly in it and put in the rear axle pin through both forks. If there is undue binding, usually one fork is slighty higher than the other indicating the forks have been torqued usually with a barrel replacment with the wrong wrenches. If both forks are parallel and the pin goes in easy you are in business. I once had a receiver that was so bent out of shape it took ALL MY FORCE just to remove the toggle assembly.
As you can see in the accompanying photo, a PIPE WRENCH or other improper tool must have been used to change the barrel as the top of the receiver has two large gouges in it from the barrel change. This was the bad Luger that I to redo into a TDJ. I also replaced the S/42 toggle link to a DWM because the owner thought it nicer with the 1920 Stamp. Anyway it turned out that this was one of the most accurate 30 Lugers I ever fired and the end result was very pleasing.
They just work better when everything lines up. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

Aaron · 08-31-2002, 05:13 PM

Wait a minute! Are we talking about the same thing? The toggle assembly goes together perfectly with no binding. It is my barreled receiver assembly which binds when going into the frame rails.

Thor · 08-31-2002, 05:20 PM

No, not really, I was just mentioning there are a couple of things that cause binding and sometimes you see BOTH! As I said, the forks should be parallel

Herb · 08-31-2002, 06:38 PM

Aaron, what was the result of checking the rails with your calipers?

Aaron · 09-01-2002, 02:39 AM

My caliper measurements indicated the rails were virtually equidistant their entire length. If the forks were out of alignment, wouldn't the toggle assembly also slide into place with difficulty?

Dwight Gruber · 09-01-2002, 12:39 PM

Aaron, if your barrel rails were out of alignment vertically then yes, both the toggle fit and the frame fit would be difficult.

Actually, it would make sense that toggle fit would be easy if frame fit was hard due to bad horizontal alignment--if the rails are squeezed the toggle is stiff and the frame is easy, if they are spread the toggle is easy and the frame is stiff.

--Dwight

Aaron · 09-01-2002, 02:23 PM

That is an interesting and simple test I have not yet tried, will do so immediately. I just returned from the local swap meet and brought home a set of parallels. I have heard of such a machine tool, but have never seen them. I think they will be helpful in disclosing any misalignment in the rails hitherto overlooked. Keep watching for further reports.

08-30-2002, 08:46 PM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Problem with 1940 Mauser Banner Police I have a superb (99.9%)1940 Mauser Banner police, completely matching including magazine, grips, etc. Disassembly is very difficult, as the barrel/toggle assembly fits so tightly that it takes a very firm pull to slide it off the frame. To reinstall the assembly it is necessary to firmy push on the muzzle to slide it on the frame. It was once suggested that a replacement barrel may have been installed and the frame was twisted in the process. There is absolutely no indication that this is a replacement barrel. Is it possible tolerances were built extra tight on this pistol? Any other ideas?

08-30-2002, 09:09 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Aaron, I had the same problem with my Erfurt. I used an inside caliper and found that the forward inside measurements of the cannon rails was 13mm and the rear was 11.5mm, my guess is a previous owner may have dropped it and then stepped on it squeezing the rails together at the rear. I used a wooden wedge inserted at the rear and forced the rear portion of the rails out to 18mm and then let it set overnight. It worked, both measure 13mm now. You might check to see if yours are also squeezed together at the rear. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-30-2002, 10:11 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	WOW, electronic calipers?? Up here in Utah I use plastic ones that I got for $1.95 in a surplus store. Let me know what you find. Hmmm, electronic calipers. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-30-2002, 10:25 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	RK, if they were made that way then all of my other Lugers are screwed up, they all measure 13mm down the whole rail length. Shooter, maybe, it's a 1912 Erfurt matching less firing pin and mag. Was chromed, off to shop in Florida to be stripped and reblued. I doubt that I will ever shoot it, just admire it. I have others like it that I never shoot, a 1916 DWM long barrel matching less barrel and mag, an undated Simpson matching less mag, and of course the 'Mystery Bulgarian' matching less side plate and mag. Anyway, I don't think the toggles would slide very good in a diminishing area and would put a lot of increased pressure on the main spring in order to make the return to battery. Awaiting Aaron's results. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-31-2002, 07:59 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I believe that there should not be extra tightness and the receiver forks should be parallel. A good indication that the forks are out of alignment (this can cause more "tightness" also) is if you take the barreled receiver and set it on a table or bench WITHOUT the toggle assembly in it and put in the rear axle pin through both forks. If there is undue binding, usually one fork is slighty higher than the other indicating the forks have been torqued usually with a barrel replacment with the wrong wrenches. If both forks are parallel and the pin goes in easy you are in business. I once had a receiver that was so bent out of shape it took ALL MY FORCE just to remove the toggle assembly. As you can see in the accompanying photo, a PIPE WRENCH or other improper tool must have been used to change the barrel as the top of the receiver has two large gouges in it from the barrel change. This was the bad Luger that I to redo into a TDJ. I also replaced the S/42 toggle link to a DWM because the owner thought it nicer with the 1920 Stamp. Anyway it turned out that this was one of the most accurate 30 Lugers I ever fired and the end result was very pleasing. They just work better when everything lines up. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-30-2002, 09:56 PM	#3
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Thanks, Herb. Will get my electronic calipers out and check the measurements right away.

08-30-2002, 10:14 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Hey guys, don't mean to be contrary but they might have been intended to be that way, my 1918 Erfurt is so tight it hums like a tuning fork when the bolt/toggle is pulled out. Also takes determination to get it back in. I was using lapping compound to smooth out the mismatched bolt & rails and had to reattach toggle & pin for it to slide at all. Herb, is this a shooter and does it work ok? RK

08-31-2002, 07:33 AM	#7
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Herb, thanks, its hard to have perspective with just one gun. For all I know they all are like it. I bought a set of electronic calipers off ebay for $24.95 from a warehouse distributor a few weeks ago. Very well made and I can SEE the little numbers on the screen. http://search.ebay.com/search/search...ronic+calipers Check this out. RK

08-31-2002, 05:13 PM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Wait a minute! Are we talking about the same thing? The toggle assembly goes together perfectly with no binding. It is my barreled receiver assembly which binds when going into the frame rails.

08-31-2002, 05:20 PM	#10
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	No, not really, I was just mentioning there are a couple of things that cause binding and sometimes you see BOTH! As I said, the forks should be parallel __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-31-2002, 06:38 PM	#11
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Aaron, what was the result of checking the rails with your calipers? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

09-01-2002, 02:39 AM	#12
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	My caliper measurements indicated the rails were virtually equidistant their entire length. If the forks were out of alignment, wouldn't the toggle assembly also slide into place with difficulty?

09-01-2002, 12:39 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Aaron, if your barrel rails were out of alignment vertically then yes, both the toggle fit and the frame fit would be difficult. Actually, it would make sense that toggle fit would be easy if frame fit was hard due to bad horizontal alignment--if the rails are squeezed the toggle is stiff and the frame is easy, if they are spread the toggle is easy and the frame is stiff. --Dwight

09-01-2002, 02:23 PM	#14
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	That is an interesting and simple test I have not yet tried, will do so immediately. I just returned from the local swap meet and brought home a set of parallels. I have heard of such a machine tool, but have never seen them. I think they will be helpful in disclosing any misalignment in the rails hitherto overlooked. Keep watching for further reports.