08 First Issue Questions

[RockinWR]

Greg/Dwight/TWIMC,
* I have posted some pics in the Member Gallery of my 1908 DWM 1st Issue S/N 9976a. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

* By way of introduction: This example is a classic, all matching S/N (but mag), 1st Issue bearing no stock lug nor chamber date. Barrel proofs and Pistol assembly proofs/acceptance stamps are on the Left Hand side, Commercial(hidden) small parts numbering locations, unrelieved sear/safety bar, & early rust blued w/ proper strawed small parts. A Hold Open has been added by Erfurt per May 6, 1913 Directive as evidenced by the familiar Crown/P acceptance stamp near the unblued H/O cross pin through the R/H Frame rail. The mag is proper as it displays the lengthwise placement of digits. It bears the numerals 2346 without a suffix nor C/letter.

* Two questions arise:
(1) The left receiver's accceptance marks are C/Z & C/T. The C/Z appears to be overstamped over another smaller crown. This has been seen on a number of First Issue P.08's; so, it is not unusual. But, has anyone any information as to why this sub crown appears and what its significance may be?? The sub crown appears beneath the upper crown of the C/Z & partially above the top "stroke" of the letter Z.
(2) This 9976a has what appears to be a single letter followed by a period in an atypical location. The letter apears on the machined cut blending the lower trigger guard to the front grip strap. The letter appears to be an "H"; but, the cross link "stroke" is angular and not connected fully. Possibly an incomplete die strike of a Script(??) "H". I've noted one other member posting an Imperial with a different letter in the same location on this Forum(I think). Has anyone an idea of the meaning of this stamp & who may have placed it on this P.08.?? The stamp appears halo'd; so, it was added after the original DWM blue @ the Factory.

* Any help in ID'ing these marking would be greatly appreciated.
TIA,
Bob

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob,

Those are good pictures, and thats a -really- choice Luger. Just wish I had even the beginning of a clue toward the answer to your questions.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

Bob,

The condition of the Luger is incredible! Congrats on such an amazing acquisition... May I ask where you sourced this pistol? To have survived in such condition it must have a pretty interesting story behind it...

This gun looks almost as good as a Ted Green (Thor) Luger restoration...

Absolutely amazing that guns this old can come out of the woodwork after all these years...

[RockinWR]

Dwight & John,
* Appreciate your kind assessments. I feel indeed fortunate to have found this example & am giving it a good home among some fellow brothers.
* John: Been with me for over a dozen years now & is righteous IMHO. Bought it after an educational learning curve on a VOPO byf 41 & Lots of books. Good pedigry. From a recognized Luger collector to a Winchester Collector who wanted to own just one P.08. He then wanted a Winc. Yellow Boy more and needed the cash. Amazing how one can remember the deal like it was yesterday.
* As mentioned, I have not built a light box nor have indirect reflectors to adequately illuminate my picture subjects. These are about the 4th experiment with my old Kodak CX4230. The inside, non flash, under a twin 40w shop industrial flourescent yields too much blue as evidenced by the Top View. Characteristic of the flourescent output. Flash, beyond the glare, seems to darken the DWM rust blue somewhat; but, is a better rendition. I like the natural, full spectrum light of the outdoors; but, we're just getting to some cloudy winter days here in Texas. Farmers Almanac says that winter may be only on a Tuesday sometime in January for these parts.
* IMO: Garfield has a clearer C/Z pic with the sub crown in Jan's Forum under his "1908 1st Issue/9th Hussars" thread. Shows S/N 7179a. Jan shows 6099ns in his recent "Erfurt Proofs on DWM Lugers" discussion.
* Been looking @ a lot more '08 & 1910 DWM pics posted on various Forums. I'm now convinced the C/Z sub-crown is not unique to the '08 - 1st Issues. Appears the sub-crown may go into the "d" block of the 1910's. As it seems independent of the side of the receiver, I think we may have a previously worn stamp which was incompletely reground of its former character(s). The haste to mark '08 1st Issues may have caused Spandau Inspectors to use refurbished stamp(s). Interesting is the C/Z is the first stamp(receiver detail part acceptance) in the 1st Issues & appears as the final acceptance stamp in some of the 1910's. Guess the Inspector graduated to a more senior status with a year of experience. I've yet to decipher whether one of the C/T stamps in a sequence of C/T, C/T, Proof Eagle also exhibits a sub-crown. If members wish to check/report their 1st Issue's & 1910 dated ("NS" to "d" block) DWM's and report their C/T sightings with and without a "subcrown", we may be able to bound the range of this marking. Then again, the minutia does seem to be getting a bit thick? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
* The trigger bow letter is really going to be a tough nut to crack. Jeff Noll's initial (1988)booklet on Imperial German Regimental Marking lists a single letter "H." as a Hussar Regimental marking. His Luger listing on Pg. 53 brackets my #9976a by a 1st issue, #9608a "Grip Marked" to an Infantry regiment as is #3452b. Not a match to the Hussars; but, a 4k spread is too generous of a range to draw a definitive conclusion.
* Gortz/Bryans, Pg. 33 (Bravarian Directive) shows a Block "H" meaning "Hilfs" (auxilliary) & a script "H" meaning "Hartschiere"(Bravarian Royal Palace Guards). However, as much as I'd like to think it the latter, I recognize both of these should be prefaced with a "B." The more likely Prussian mark of an "H." is listed on Pg. 19 and yields Haumpt-(Principle or Quarters); Haubitz(Batterie); Husar( ); & Hessish(Grossherzoglich??). Then their is the Saxon's & Wuerttemberg Units.
* Occam's Razor suggests this single letter is a rack marking @ some reserve unit storage site. When WWI started, time precluded a full grip strap marking. Or; maybe, it was just "Heinz's" private gun.
* Appreciate thoughts, facts, or other examples from the membership.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Lugerdoc]

Bob, I have a 1910 dated receiver in stock that is proofed on right side of the unnumbered receiver C/T, C/Z and DWM proof eagle closest to barrel #746d. TH

[Greg]

Thanks for the pixs Bob...I think I'm gonna take a closer look at the proofing on my 1908 first issue.

Greg

[Ron Wood]

Bob,

Your topic has a lot of people scrambling to look at their First Issues, me included. Thanks for your eagle eye and the revelation of the secondary crown on the Crown/Z proof. Clearly they are a hand stamped add-on to the Crown/Z, and show a lot of variability. Garfieldâ??s small crown even looks like it may be stamped upside down!

I wish I had a clue as to the origin or meaning of your â??Hâ?� trigger bow marking, but I have no idea and no thought concerning any additional references.

[RockinWR]

Tom,
* Thanks for your S/N report. Is your C/Z a double or single crown stamped example? Jan Still pictures a 1910 DWM #8783c with what I think is the C/T doublet & 5865d without in separate threads on his CP/AP Forum.

Ron,
* What a great comparison composite of the doublet crown over Z stamped examples appearing on the Forum(s) recently. Thanks for an on-target post graphically illustrating the question.
* The real eagle eye belongs to the AutoMag member raising this question in a post on another subject. He dropped this in as an "Oh, by the way" comment.

Speaking of BTW: Are either of you two gentlemen going to this weekend's Great Western Show in Dallas? I plan to hoof it starting Friday. Hope to see you there.

Bob

[Lugerdoc]

Rockin WR, Judging from the above photo of your "double crown" over Z inspector's mark, I'd say that this was an unintential bounce strike, when the crown was applied over the Z. TH

[Ron Wood]

Bob,

I have always wanted to attend the Great Western, but unfortunately I will miss this one too. I will be out roaming the Guadalupe Mountains this weekend.

Ron