PLEASE HELP!!! Don't want to lose this one.

Bryon · 01-16-2003, 11:52 PM

Good evening, this is my first post and I am in need of assistance on a Luger.

All part numbers match on pistol except grips and mag.

41 Byf They said black widow (I know that's not what they are called)

Serial 6729

Under barrel: 6729 then 882

Right side of barrel: Eagal on top of nazi sign

Right frame: Eagle 655 Eagle 135 Eagle nazi sign
Note" they are very faint"

Front of frame no prefix letter

Top of pistol 41 Byf

Black grips, no mark on the inside

Mag is all alum. marked

2
7248
*
s

The inside of the frame at the rear has a stamp that looks like an " A " with a circle around it?

The finish is 90%+ some very minor browning on the black finish. Bore is very good, very, very mild pitting is a few places, land/grooves sharp.

Comes with a repo holster, asking $625.00

What do you think? Refinished? Worth it?

thanks you for taking the time to read this!

Bryon

Frank · 01-17-2003, 12:37 AM

Byron, if you are convinced it is all matching (both externally and internally) it sounds like a good deal.

Just remember, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. It would be nice if you could identify fake bakelite grips, since this is one area that could be difficult for you to judge.

Don't worry about the magazine not matching, you can pick up a nice one later for $$$, of course.

The internal parts are the trigger, main toggle pin, hold open lever, breechblock and firing pin and they should all me marked with "29".

If it has 90% blue with the wear on the correct places, it it may not be a reblue!

The pistol is relatively rare, because of the acceptance marks (one E/655 and one E/135). These were made at the end of the 1941 production and very likely contain both 1941 and 1942 parts.

It would help if you had some photos!! Hope this helps.

Bryon · 01-17-2003, 01:06 AM

Frank, thank you for the help. I did research the forum and found some info on the grips with photos. From the outside they look like the originals, on the left inside there are two round bumps? and it appears the lower one is threaded.

As for the marks on the right side of the frame does it matter that they are pretty faint at the top? The E/655 is very faint and hard to read, light punch strike? or polished by being refinished? I was concerned it was re-finished, except the finish is very even but has wear on the plate on the left and the left side of the barrel near the muzzle and under the front site.

If it was re-finished what would the value be?

RockinWR · 01-17-2003, 01:12 AM

Bryon,
* Many a standard wood grip byf has gone into the "beauty" shop (garage) and received repro black grips to enhance its resale value. The asking price doesn't seem to reflect this. Why??
* As you know, mismatched mag. The Sunburst S (*S) is an late 20's-early '30's Police acceptance mark. Numeral "2" indicates it is the second mag for the gun. A late byf 41 normally would have a "fxo" code maker's marked mag. accepted by an Army Inspector "sE/37". These later mag marks would appear on the lower side of the blue, "extruded" tube accompanied by a small P.08 near the center pinned plug.
* All info conveyed is correct for a WWII Army, transitional Inspector's marked, byf '41(E/655, E/135, E/S). An original example is not a common variation and the no suffix block is the correct S/N range.
* What you don't say is if all numbers match on all small parts (I/side & Out) of this example.
* Without pictures, its impossible to tell whether the finish is original or a later post war re-blue. Many dipped imports on the market right now @ about $575-$625. Look for an all blue muzzle, evidence of blue in the chamber, wear on the rails where sliding receiver to frame parts bear against each other, wear on the ramps in front of the safety lever where the toggle rides up during cycle, wear induced imprint of the rear toggle leaf impinging on the back vertical surface of the frame, blue around the firing pin hole in the front of the breech block, blue loss on the bottom of the breech block cut which picks up the next round from the chamber, etc. A 90% original finished collectible pistol, evidencing some bore pitting, would indicate regular use and proportional wear on moving parts with commensurate blue loss.
* Do you see any small Importer's marks?? Barrel, right receiver, underside of rails, or especially on the frame hidden under the left grip. ALso, some of the dipped blue imports have an "X" marked somewhere on the piece; usually on the left front of the receiver near the 4 digit S/N ahead of the side plate.
* I regularly remind myself: If a deal seems too good to be true; it usually is !!. Proceed methodically, without haste, knowing exactly why you are making this investment. Shooting or collectible investment?? Also, proceed with seriousness and timeliness to crystalize your intentions without confusion in deference to the seller's interests.
* IMHO: Repro holster is $35-$45; so, downside is you get a shooter at about top retail price. Upside is you get a collectible worth more. Does it fit your collecting interest?? Why would a seller encumber a true collectible with a repro holster??? Your decision now....follow your gut feel.
Respectfully,
WR

Bryon · 01-17-2003, 05:51 AM

Thank you again for the information, this forum is has a wealth of expertise. The pistol is on consignment at a local C&R dealer, I agree about the holster, maybe he does not know what he has?

I did check all of the internal parts, they all are stamped 29. When I had the left grip panel off I looked everywhere for an import mark but could not find any import marks on the pistol, I used a 5x magnifying glass. I will go back to look again tomorrow.

I was not looking for an investment collector piece, I just wanted to make sure I was not overpaying should I find out it's been re-blued. If it is the "real deal" then good for me.

I just keep remembering $300-400 imported lugers from 1996-98 in SGN ads and asking "am I paying too much".
Thanks again. I will let you know what I find.

Bryon · 01-18-2003, 12:33 AM

Well, I took the day from the office to go look at this 41 ByF again. I never would have thought taking a day off would cost so much, I ended up buying an Exc. 1903 A3, R/C k-98 44 ByF, the P-08, and another Walther p-1.

Conclusion, I believe it has been re-blued, but the grips may be original. Either way, all of the parts match, and I got them down to $575.00 so I purchased it. It seems to be a great price for a totally correct, yet re-blued pistol of this era. Heck I see the imported mismatched guns selling for more than this. I was not in it for the investment, maybe some day when the right pistol comes around. I just can't remember the last time I saw a nice (non-collector) luger in a store. I am in So. Cal, they are getting harder and harder to find. I am happy.

Thank you to all for the valuable info. If the grips turn out to be correct I may sell them since this the pistol has been re-blued.

Bryon

Silvereagle29 · 01-29-2003, 01:03 AM

Forget all the grip hunt stuff. There is only a very few 41-byf Lugers in the no suffix block that have the SE-655 SE-135 acceptance marks and test proof three. This pistol is the transition from SE-655 SE-655 to SE-135 SE-135.. I can assure you, there are not many in the hands of collectors. Think about it for a minute, anybody can find a SE-655 SE-655 41-byf. The SE-135 SE-135 41-byf is a lot tougher to find but the SE-655 SE-135 is the most rare. I have seen very few of these in my collecting days. If the condition of the pistol is acceptable to you, go for it. If you don't want it, tell me where it is. I'll buy it. good Luck
H

Bryon · 02-03-2003, 07:37 PM

Well I took the 41 BYF home today. I am pretty sure the grips are real. Frank sent me a few photos of real BW grips and I am convinced since they look identical to his photos. I will try to post some picture later.

Since I spent so much time on everything else I did not notice the toggle will stay in place half cocked, my 1916 DWM does not do this?? Bad main spring?? I cleaned and lubed with breakfree and if you pull the toggle back, it will stay put at the first pivot point in it's rearward travel. When it's all the way locked back and you pull back and release it slams home, but if you slowly lower the toggle it will rest at the same half-cocked position?

01-16-2003, 11:52 PM	#1
Bryon User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	PLEASE HELP!!! Don't want to lose this one. Good evening, this is my first post and I am in need of assistance on a Luger. All part numbers match on pistol except grips and mag. 41 Byf They said black widow (I know that's not what they are called) Serial 6729 Under barrel: 6729 then 882 Right side of barrel: Eagal on top of nazi sign Right frame: Eagle 655 Eagle 135 Eagle nazi sign Note" they are very faint" Front of frame no prefix letter Top of pistol 41 Byf Black grips, no mark on the inside Mag is all alum. marked 2 7248 * s The inside of the frame at the rear has a stamp that looks like an " A " with a circle around it? The finish is 90%+ some very minor browning on the black finish. Bore is very good, very, very mild pitting is a few places, land/grooves sharp. Comes with a repo holster, asking $625.00 What do you think? Refinished? Worth it? thanks you for taking the time to read this! Bryon

01-17-2003, 12:37 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 165 Times in 87 Posts	Byron, if you are convinced it is all matching (both externally and internally) it sounds like a good deal. Just remember, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. It would be nice if you could identify fake bakelite grips, since this is one area that could be difficult for you to judge. Don't worry about the magazine not matching, you can pick up a nice one later for $$$, of course. The internal parts are the trigger, main toggle pin, hold open lever, breechblock and firing pin and they should all me marked with "29". If it has 90% blue with the wear on the correct places, it it may not be a reblue! The pistol is relatively rare, because of the acceptance marks (one E/655 and one E/135). These were made at the end of the 1941 production and very likely contain both 1941 and 1942 parts. It would help if you had some photos!! Hope this helps.

01-17-2003, 01:06 AM	#3
Bryon User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frank, thank you for the help. I did research the forum and found some info on the grips with photos. From the outside they look like the originals, on the left inside there are two round bumps? and it appears the lower one is threaded. As for the marks on the right side of the frame does it matter that they are pretty faint at the top? The E/655 is very faint and hard to read, light punch strike? or polished by being refinished? I was concerned it was re-finished, except the finish is very even but has wear on the plate on the left and the left side of the barrel near the muzzle and under the front site. If it was re-finished what would the value be?

01-17-2003, 01:12 AM	#4
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Bryon, * Many a standard wood grip byf has gone into the "beauty" shop (garage) and received repro black grips to enhance its resale value. The asking price doesn't seem to reflect this. Why?? * As you know, mismatched mag. The Sunburst S (S) is an late 20's-early '30's Police acceptance mark. Numeral "2" indicates it is the second mag for the gun. A late byf 41 normally would have a "fxo" code maker's marked mag. accepted by an Army Inspector "sE/37". These later mag marks would appear on the lower side of the blue, "extruded" tube accompanied by a small P.08 near the center pinned plug. All info conveyed is correct for a WWII Army, transitional Inspector's marked, byf '41(E/655, E/135, E/S). An original example is not a common variation and the no suffix block is the correct S/N range. * What you don't say is if all numbers match on all small parts (I/side & Out) of this example. * Without pictures, its impossible to tell whether the finish is original or a later post war re-blue. Many dipped imports on the market right now @ about $575-$625. Look for an all blue muzzle, evidence of blue in the chamber, wear on the rails where sliding receiver to frame parts bear against each other, wear on the ramps in front of the safety lever where the toggle rides up during cycle, wear induced imprint of the rear toggle leaf impinging on the back vertical surface of the frame, blue around the firing pin hole in the front of the breech block, blue loss on the bottom of the breech block cut which picks up the next round from the chamber, etc. A 90% original finished collectible pistol, evidencing some bore pitting, would indicate regular use and proportional wear on moving parts with commensurate blue loss. * Do you see any small Importer's marks?? Barrel, right receiver, underside of rails, or especially on the frame hidden under the left grip. ALso, some of the dipped blue imports have an "X" marked somewhere on the piece; usually on the left front of the receiver near the 4 digit S/N ahead of the side plate. * I regularly remind myself: If a deal seems too good to be true; it usually is !!. Proceed methodically, without haste, knowing exactly why you are making this investment. Shooting or collectible investment?? Also, proceed with seriousness and timeliness to crystalize your intentions without confusion in deference to the seller's interests. * IMHO: Repro holster is $35-$45; so, downside is you get a shooter at about top retail price. Upside is you get a collectible worth more. Does it fit your collecting interest?? Why would a seller encumber a true collectible with a repro holster??? Your decision now....follow your gut feel. Respectfully, WR

01-17-2003, 05:51 AM	#5
Bryon User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you again for the information, this forum is has a wealth of expertise. The pistol is on consignment at a local C&R dealer, I agree about the holster, maybe he does not know what he has? I did check all of the internal parts, they all are stamped 29. When I had the left grip panel off I looked everywhere for an import mark but could not find any import marks on the pistol, I used a 5x magnifying glass. I will go back to look again tomorrow. I was not looking for an investment collector piece, I just wanted to make sure I was not overpaying should I find out it's been re-blued. If it is the "real deal" then good for me. I just keep remembering $300-400 imported lugers from 1996-98 in SGN ads and asking "am I paying too much". Thanks again. I will let you know what I find.

01-18-2003, 12:33 AM	#6
Bryon User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I took the day from the office to go look at this 41 ByF again. I never would have thought taking a day off would cost so much, I ended up buying an Exc. 1903 A3, R/C k-98 44 ByF, the P-08, and another Walther p-1. Conclusion, I believe it has been re-blued, but the grips may be original. Either way, all of the parts match, and I got them down to $575.00 so I purchased it. It seems to be a great price for a totally correct, yet re-blued pistol of this era. Heck I see the imported mismatched guns selling for more than this. I was not in it for the investment, maybe some day when the right pistol comes around. I just can't remember the last time I saw a nice (non-collector) luger in a store. I am in So. Cal, they are getting harder and harder to find. I am happy. Thank you to all for the valuable info. If the grips turn out to be correct I may sell them since this the pistol has been re-blued. Bryon

01-29-2003, 01:03 AM	#7
Silvereagle29 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 105 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Forget all the grip hunt stuff. There is only a very few 41-byf Lugers in the no suffix block that have the SE-655 SE-135 acceptance marks and test proof three. This pistol is the transition from SE-655 SE-655 to SE-135 SE-135.. I can assure you, there are not many in the hands of collectors. Think about it for a minute, anybody can find a SE-655 SE-655 41-byf. The SE-135 SE-135 41-byf is a lot tougher to find but the SE-655 SE-135 is the most rare. I have seen very few of these in my collecting days. If the condition of the pistol is acceptable to you, go for it. If you don't want it, tell me where it is. I'll buy it. good Luck H

02-03-2003, 07:37 PM	#8
Bryon User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well I took the 41 BYF home today. I am pretty sure the grips are real. Frank sent me a few photos of real BW grips and I am convinced since they look identical to his photos. I will try to post some picture later. Since I spent so much time on everything else I did not notice the toggle will stay in place half cocked, my 1916 DWM does not do this?? Bad main spring?? I cleaned and lubed with breakfree and if you pull the toggle back, it will stay put at the first pivot point in it's rearward travel. When it's all the way locked back and you pull back and release it slams home, but if you slowly lower the toggle it will rest at the same half-cocked position?