Truncated cone bullets

[grantman]

Fellows:

I'm looking for information on the history of Truncated cone bullet use in 9mm ammo as loaded by the Germans in WW2.

I have heard the following:

1. Truncated cone 9mm bullets were specifically loaded for use in PO8s, especially those used with drum magazines

2. Anecdotally, I have heard that American GIs were told that the truncated cone ammo they encountered was intended for Lugers, while the round ogive 9mm was intended for P-38s .

3. I have seen 16 round packets of round ogive, sintered iron 9mm rounds that I'm assuming are intended for pistols, since the 16 rounds would fill 2 magazines

I have not seen any sintered iron bulleted rounds in truncated cone shape.

Do any of you true scholars have info on this topic.

[Lugerdoc]

I've also have some of those "sintered steel" bullet 9mm late WW2 ammo. A couple of warnings: Shooting this ammo will rapidly wear down your lands in the barrel and will penetrate the metal back stop at an indoor range. Finally, some states prohibit the posession of what they classify as "Cop Killer" ammo, since these rounds are "amour piercing". TH

[mrerick]

This study is rather thorough, and includes the early history of the 9mm Luger cartridge:

https://cartridgecollectors.org/docu...Cartridges.pdf

The study also documents Germany's change from truncated cone bullets to FMJ rounded ogive bullets.

[Vlim]

All 3 assumptions you list are wrong.

The original 9x19 was developed with a truncated cone bullet, as was the .30 luger it was based on.

The only round supplied to the German army until 1917 was this design. The Germans only switched to the truncated cone due to political reasons. The allied propaganda branded it as a dum-dum bullet, voilating some treaties.

The switchover from truncated to ogival had nothing to do with technical issues.

Material shortages during WW2 caused changes in production, the only limitation for P08 pistols was the use of steel cases which could stick in the champer of a P08 due to the step in the chamber.

The 9mm variations were intended for everything that shot them otherwise.
No truncated cone 9mm was officially issued after 1917, certainly not during WW2.

[Doubs]

Vlim is correct although the change to a round nose ball cartridge came in 1916. The War Ministry directive was dated 22 March, 1916, and all existing stocks of TC cartridges were to be used in practice; i.e., training. Changeover, of course, took time but it should have been completed before 1917.

The Allies claimed that the TC bullets violated the 1899 Hague Convention that forbid the use of ammunition designed to cause unnecessary damage and suffering. It was propaganda but Germany decided to make the change for - as Vlim says - political reasons. G&S has a section on the changeover.

Interestingly, the United States has never signed the Hague Conventions part restricting the kinds of cartridges it uses. However, the U.S. has pretty well complied... until recently. Along with the adoption of their new Sig 9mm pistol, they have adopted the M1152 cartridge that uses a truncated cone bullet much like the original German Army Luger cartridge. What's old is now new again.

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Vlim is correct although the change to a round nose ball cartridge came in 1916. The War Ministry directive was dated 22 March, 1916, and all existing stocks of TC cartridges were to be used in practice; i.e., training. Changeover, of course, took time but it should have been completed before 1917.

The Allies claimed that the TC bullets violated the 1899 Hague Convention that forbid the use of ammunition designed to cause unnecessary damage and suffering. It was propaganda but Germany decided to make the change for - as Vlim says - political reasons. G&S has a section on the changeover.

Interestingly, the United States has never signed the Hague Conventions part restricting the kinds of cartridges it uses. However, the U.S. has pretty well complied... until recently. Along with the adoption of their new Sig 9mm pistol, they have adopted the M1152 cartridge that uses a truncated cone bullet much like the original German Army Luger cartridge. What's old is now new again.

Perhaps because they feed well....I cast a 124 gr. TC (Lee) that feeds beautifully in reduced 9mm loads in my PO8s. Thanks!

[Vlim]

I think the original 9mm truncated cone was a left over of attempts to improve the .30 luger wound ballistics.

When the caliber was increased, the bullet design just followed the .30 luger one.

[LU1900]

Hello , do you have idea about the year for those TC bullets ?

[Vlim]

Commercial, mid to late 1930s.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by grantman

Perhaps because they feed well....I cast a 124 gr. TC (Lee) that feeds beautifully in reduced 9mm loads in my PO8s. Thanks!

That they do. My standard load for my 9mm Lugers is seen in the picture below on the far right. It's the 115 grain Berry's plated bullet over 5.6 grains of Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder. Loaded to an OAL of 1.100", they feed beautifully in my Lugers.

For use in my more modern 9mm pistols, I have to seat the Berry bullets deeper because of chamber differences.

For years I used the Lyman 121 grain TC cast bullet and it also worked beautifully. It is similar to the TC cast bullet in the picture that is actually for my .30 Lugers.

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Doubs

That they do. My standard load for my 9mm Lugers is seen in the picture below on the far right. It's the 115 grain Berry's plated bullet over 5.6 grains of Hodgdon CFE Pistol powder. Loaded to an OAL of 1.100", they feed beautifully in my Lugers.

For use in my more modern 9mm pistols, I have to seat the Berry bullets deeper because of chamber differences.

For years I used the Lyman 121 grain TC cast bullet and it also worked beautifully. It is similar to the TC cast bullet in the picture that is actually for my .30 Lugers.

Thanks for the load info. I have never used CFE and I know nothing about it. I'm always looking for new propellants. Can you tell me more about it?

I have had very good luck with the following:

Home cast Lee 124 grain TC (Lyman #2 alloy).
Rooster Jacket tumble lube
3.8 Grains Bullseye. ( a modest load, per Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook) New formula Bullseye is very clean burning and meters well.
Federal case, Winchester small pistol primer
C.O.L. 1.075" taper crimp
Perfect function in my mixmaster PO8. I color primers with a sharpie and this load does not scuff the ink upon firing. Primers are softly round with no pocket-filling or expansion. Cycling seems very gentle. No leading.

[Vlim]

Just to return to the Drum Magazine.

A good drum within specs does not need special rounds.
Many years ago I tested a type 2 Bing with several types of ammo and it fed all without problems. I even fired 32 rounds of Fiocchi lead roundnose .30 Luger through a Swiss 06/29 pistol with the drum magazine without problems.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by grantman

Thanks for the load info. I have never used CFE and I know nothing about it. I'm always looking for new propellants. Can you tell me more about it?

I have had very good luck with the following:

Home cast Lee 124 grain TC (Lyman #2 alloy).
Rooster Jacket tumble lube
3.8 Grains Bullseye. ( a modest load, per Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook) New formula Bullseye is very clean burning and meters well.
Federal case, Winchester small pistol primer
C.O.L. 1.075" taper crimp
Perfect function in my mixmaster PO8. I color primers with a sharpie and this load does not scuff the ink upon firing. Primers are softly round with no pocket-filling or expansion. Cycling seems very gentle. No leading.

I don't know what more I can tell you than CFE Pistol powder burns clean and performs much like Unique. I also like that it meters consistently through a measure.

Here is a review of CFE Pistol powder that might interest you. https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...l-powder/99627

I've used a lot of the Lyman cast TC bullets in years past and it's an excellent design for the Luger. I haven't cast in awhile because the Berry bullets are inexpensive and far less trouble. They also work extremely well.

If your load works, I see no reason to change except perhaps for convenience. Bullseye is an excellent powder and meters extremely well. I've used a lot of it over the years.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Vlim

I think the original 9mm truncated cone was a left over of attempts to improve the .30 luger wound ballistics.

When the caliber was increased, the bullet design just followed the .30 luger one.

Vlim,

Somewhere, I read that Fischer assisted Luger in developing the original 9mm TC bullet for DWM; because the GPK thought the 9mm lacked killing power, as compared the the 11mm Reich's Revolver bullet it was replacing.

Ironically, when the US originally adopted the 9mm 92 Beretta, in favor of the Colt .45, the same doubt was raised; thus, the TC "Air Force" bullet was designed and tested but not adopted for use at that time.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by grantman

Thanks for the load info. I have never used CFE and I know nothing about it. I'm always looking for new propellants. Can you tell me more about it?

I have had very good luck with the following:

Home cast Lee 124 grain TC (Lyman #2 alloy).
Rooster Jacket tumble lube
3.8 Grains Bullseye. ( a modest load, per Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook) New formula Bullseye is very clean burning and meters well.
Federal case, Winchester small pistol primer
C.O.L. 1.075" taper crimp
Perfect function in my mixmaster PO8. I color primers with a sharpie and this load does not scuff the ink upon firing. Primers are softly round with no pocket-filling or expansion. Cycling seems very gentle. No leading.

Hi,

Substitute only the Lyman 121 grain TC, at an O.A.L. of 29mm, and you will be most happy.

Respectfully,


Sieger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Substitute only the Lyman 121 grain TC, at an O.A.L. of 29mm, and you will be most happy.

Respectfully,


Sieger

Thanks! I'll try it!

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi, Substitute only the Lyman 121 grain TC, at an O.A.L. of 29mm, and you will be most happy.

Respectfully, Sieger

I've used thousands of the Lyman 121 grain TC bullet over the years. It is an excellent design and feeds beautifully through a Luger. Also, it's very accurate

In 1986, I won all three B class matches in an all Suffolk County, England, event. One of those matches was won with a CZ-75 using the Lyman TC bullet that I cast.

Now I find it a lot easier to use the 115 grain Berry's plated flat nose bullet. It has a larger meplat and is more like the original Luger bullet than the Lyman. They feed as reliably as the Lyman.