byf 41 buying assistance

Navystv · 02-11-2003, 04:12 AM

Gentlemen, this is my first message here!
I'm not yet a P08 owner, but I'm thinking to buy one:
I saw a P08 byf 41 with black plastic grips, matching s/n (on the visible small parts, w/o disassemble pistol), rechambered 9X21 barrel (in my country 9 para is illegal). It looks in VG shape, dark blue color with fews, light signs of pitting, and the bore is ok. The magazine is fully-alu color, except for the bottom, black. The seller told me isn't original. The firing position of thumb safety lever is up. There is a WaA (655, but I'm not sure).
They asked me 900 € (the older models, as S/42, are here running around 1.300, always in 9X21).
How can I recognize if the finish and the grips are original or not?
Could you tell me something more about the Mauser "byf 41" model and its use in WWII (police, luftwaffe, kriegsmarine, etc.)?
What do you think about the price?
I beg your help as soon is possible, because I have to give a response.
Thanks in advance,

M.
(Any other suggestions are welcome)

Frank · 02-11-2003, 05:15 AM

Marzio, welcome to the Luger Forum. You haven't provided much needed information to make a firm appraisal.

But, these comments may be helpful. The byf 41 was used primarily by the Military (Army). If the serial number suffix, if there is one, is T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z or no suffix, the black plastic grips are proper. The suffix letter can be found on the front of the frame, below the barrel and just below the numeric portion of the serial number. Then the magazine should be an "fxo" type, milled steel body with either an aluminum or black plastic bottom. The serial number may or may not appear on the bottom (if aluminum)

It is important to be able to recognize original plastic grips. Also, some internal parts are stamped with the last two digits of the serial number.

If the suffix range is correct, the internal parts are matching, the grips are original and the finish is original and in excellent condition, and your price is in Euros, it is a reasonable purchase.

I hope this helps! Good Luck!

Lugerdoc · 02-11-2003, 05:18 AM

M (of James Bond fame no doubt), I'm curious as to what round you are calling 9x21mm (both 9mm Largo and Steyr are 9x25 and too long to feed in a PO8). Most of the lugers that I've encountered from Italy, were chambered in 7.65x19 (30 luger). Gratzi, Tom H.

Navystv · 02-11-2003, 09:43 AM

Thanks for helping! The P08 has also 2 waffenamt (eagle + 135), and the s/n (all matching) is 1121, no suffix. I'm not able to recognize original grips, otherwise the plastic seems to be old (bachelite). There are not numbers or marks inside. The magazine is not original, in alu with plastic black bottom, but the price is now 850 euro, with transporting case and cleaning kit, shipping included.
What I have to check more before running to buy?

About 9X21 round, all weapons in war-type calibers (as 9 para, 5.56 NATO, etc.) are not allowed here. So, if you want to own a Luger, a P 38 and so on, you have to accept a "reworked" chamber, which is able to be feeded by a different caliber. The round in question has the case 2 mm longer then 9 para, but the ball is insered deeper in it, so the difference is just 1 mm (and the pistol "rechambered" has a chamber 1 mm shorter).
The 9X21 IMI (Israeli military industries) is the caliber more similar to the 9X19, for lenght and power, so is choosen for ex-military pistols (reworked) or civilian versions (as the Beretta 98F, which is a 92F model in this caliber).
This law has no sense, as many others, but is the law.
Thanks again Frank and thanks Tom H(anks?)

John Sabato · 02-11-2003, 10:14 AM

Tom H(eller)

I remember articles written in several gun magazines 15 or 20 years ago on the 9x21 cartridge. It was specifically designed for use in those overseas countries (such as Italy) where possession of 9mm parabellum and other issued military calibers is prohibited by law. The case is just a 9mm Parabellum that is 2mm longer to get around the law. Because of case capacity It is possible that it can be loaded hotter than 9mm Parabellum in appropriate modern pistols such as the browning hi-power, and is very similar to the .38 Super in ballistics. I would not recommend hot loads in the Luger pistol, but rather load it to standard parabellum pressures.

Ciao Marzio (Navystv),

Benvenuto al Lugerforum.

Navystv · 02-11-2003, 10:34 AM

Grazie John!

You've explained exactly what my poor english didn't allow me to do.
Thanks for suggestion about pressure.

Ciao,
Marzio

Frank · 02-11-2003, 11:12 AM

Hello again Marzio! The Luger you mentioned, with the eagle-over-135 (E/135) marks is fairly rare!

If you could have someone field strip the pistol, the last two digits should appear on the trigger, the rear toggle pin, hold open lever, breechblock and firing pin.

If the Luger is in good condition, and the parts match, run to buy it at that price.

Good Luck!

Navystv · 02-11-2003, 02:37 PM

Thank you Frank, I have my cheque in the left and the pen in the right!
But, reading the past messages, I've had a doubt: is it possible a relatively low s/n (1121 w/o suffix) and double SE 135 togheter? I've understood Mauser started with 655, so low numbers, and late appeared 135 with high numbers or numbers plus block letters.
I'm quite confuse...
Thanks again,

M.

Frank · 02-12-2003, 04:37 AM

Marzio, yes it can be somewhat confusing. The byf 41 Lugers started in the N-Block, then went to the O-Block and so on until the Z-Block. Mauser then started over with the No Suffix (NS)-Block, the A-Block and just into the B-Block. So the no suffix is, in reality, toward the end of the production.

The double E/135 Acceptance Marks first appeared around 1000 NS, so yours would be an early example. Estimates of about 4000 double E/135 and mixed E/655, E/135, combined, were produced between 1000 NS and 1000b. The remaining in that range are the double E/655 and byf 42. The majority of the 4000 are double E/135.

Congratulations!!!

Pete Ebbink · 02-12-2003, 07:51 AM

Hello Marzio,

In reply to your question about original "Black Widow" grips : If you take a look at the discussion on 2-11-03 and 2-4-03; you will see some good photos of real BW grips which you can use to compare to the ones on the luger you are considering to buy.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navystv · 02-12-2003, 08:05 AM

Thanks to all you, gentlemen, for your precious info and suggestions.
The "Black Widow" is bought; now I have to wait a little (papers, licenses, shipping, etc.), but when the pistol will be here, I'll try to post some pics.
Thanks again,
Marzio

02-11-2003, 04:12 AM	#1
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	byf 41 buying assistance Gentlemen, this is my first message here! I'm not yet a P08 owner, but I'm thinking to buy one: I saw a P08 byf 41 with black plastic grips, matching s/n (on the visible small parts, w/o disassemble pistol), rechambered 9X21 barrel (in my country 9 para is illegal). It looks in VG shape, dark blue color with fews, light signs of pitting, and the bore is ok. The magazine is fully-alu color, except for the bottom, black. The seller told me isn't original. The firing position of thumb safety lever is up. There is a WaA (655, but I'm not sure). They asked me 900 € (the older models, as S/42, are here running around 1.300, always in 9X21). How can I recognize if the finish and the grips are original or not? Could you tell me something more about the Mauser "byf 41" model and its use in WWII (police, luftwaffe, kriegsmarine, etc.)? What do you think about the price? I beg your help as soon is possible, because I have to give a response. Thanks in advance, M. (Any other suggestions are welcome)

02-11-2003, 05:18 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	M (of James Bond fame no doubt), I'm curious as to what round you are calling 9x21mm (both 9mm Largo and Steyr are 9x25 and too long to feed in a PO8). Most of the lugers that I've encountered from Italy, were chambered in 7.65x19 (30 luger). Gratzi, Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-11-2003, 10:14 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Tom H(eller) I remember articles written in several gun magazines 15 or 20 years ago on the 9x21 cartridge. It was specifically designed for use in those overseas countries (such as Italy) where possession of 9mm parabellum and other issued military calibers is prohibited by law. The case is just a 9mm Parabellum that is 2mm longer to get around the law. Because of case capacity It is possible that it can be loaded hotter than 9mm Parabellum in appropriate modern pistols such as the browning hi-power, and is very similar to the .38 Super in ballistics. I would not recommend hot loads in the Luger pistol, but rather load it to standard parabellum pressures. Ciao Marzio (Navystv), Benvenuto al Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-11-2003, 05:15 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 165 Times in 87 Posts	Marzio, welcome to the Luger Forum. You haven't provided much needed information to make a firm appraisal. But, these comments may be helpful. The byf 41 was used primarily by the Military (Army). If the serial number suffix, if there is one, is T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z or no suffix, the black plastic grips are proper. The suffix letter can be found on the front of the frame, below the barrel and just below the numeric portion of the serial number. Then the magazine should be an "fxo" type, milled steel body with either an aluminum or black plastic bottom. The serial number may or may not appear on the bottom (if aluminum) It is important to be able to recognize original plastic grips. Also, some internal parts are stamped with the last two digits of the serial number. If the suffix range is correct, the internal parts are matching, the grips are original and the finish is original and in excellent condition, and your price is in Euros, it is a reasonable purchase. I hope this helps! Good Luck!

02-11-2003, 09:43 AM	#4
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for helping! The P08 has also 2 waffenamt (eagle + 135), and the s/n (all matching) is 1121, no suffix. I'm not able to recognize original grips, otherwise the plastic seems to be old (bachelite). There are not numbers or marks inside. The magazine is not original, in alu with plastic black bottom, but the price is now 850 euro, with transporting case and cleaning kit, shipping included. What I have to check more before running to buy? About 9X21 round, all weapons in war-type calibers (as 9 para, 5.56 NATO, etc.) are not allowed here. So, if you want to own a Luger, a P 38 and so on, you have to accept a "reworked" chamber, which is able to be feeded by a different caliber. The round in question has the case 2 mm longer then 9 para, but the ball is insered deeper in it, so the difference is just 1 mm (and the pistol "rechambered" has a chamber 1 mm shorter). The 9X21 IMI (Israeli military industries) is the caliber more similar to the 9X19, for lenght and power, so is choosen for ex-military pistols (reworked) or civilian versions (as the Beretta 98F, which is a 92F model in this caliber). This law has no sense, as many others, but is the law. Thanks again Frank and thanks Tom H(anks?)

02-11-2003, 10:34 AM	#6
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Grazie John! You've explained exactly what my poor english didn't allow me to do. Thanks for suggestion about pressure. Ciao, Marzio

02-11-2003, 11:12 AM	#7
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 165 Times in 87 Posts	Hello again Marzio! The Luger you mentioned, with the eagle-over-135 (E/135) marks is fairly rare! If you could have someone field strip the pistol, the last two digits should appear on the trigger, the rear toggle pin, hold open lever, breechblock and firing pin. If the Luger is in good condition, and the parts match, run to buy it at that price. Good Luck!

02-11-2003, 02:37 PM	#8
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Frank, I have my cheque in the left and the pen in the right! But, reading the past messages, I've had a doubt: is it possible a relatively low s/n (1121 w/o suffix) and double SE 135 togheter? I've understood Mauser started with 655, so low numbers, and late appeared 135 with high numbers or numbers plus block letters. I'm quite confuse... Thanks again, M.

02-12-2003, 04:37 AM	#9
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 165 Times in 87 Posts	Marzio, yes it can be somewhat confusing. The byf 41 Lugers started in the N-Block, then went to the O-Block and so on until the Z-Block. Mauser then started over with the No Suffix (NS)-Block, the A-Block and just into the B-Block. So the no suffix is, in reality, toward the end of the production. The double E/135 Acceptance Marks first appeared around 1000 NS, so yours would be an early example. Estimates of about 4000 double E/135 and mixed E/655, E/135, combined, were produced between 1000 NS and 1000b. The remaining in that range are the double E/655 and byf 42. The majority of the 4000 are double E/135. Congratulations!!!

02-12-2003, 07:51 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Hello Marzio, In reply to your question about original "Black Widow" grips : If you take a look at the discussion on 2-11-03 and 2-4-03; you will see some good photos of real BW grips which you can use to compare to the ones on the luger you are considering to buy. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-12-2003, 08:05 AM	#11
Navystv User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Italy Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks to all you, gentlemen, for your precious info and suggestions. The "Black Widow" is bought; now I have to wait a little (papers, licenses, shipping, etc.), but when the pistol will be here, I'll try to post some pics. Thanks again, Marzio