LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Early Lugers (1900-1906)

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 06-20-2018, 05:32 PM   #1
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default DWM Model 1902 Luger Carbine

DWM Model 1902 Luger Carbine s/n 50100




I was born in the mid-1950s and grew up in a time when the Luger had tremendous mystique. In those days you could order a "surplus" Luger from the back of a magazine for something like $25. Every kid wanted one.

Then came 1968 and the laws that put an end to mail order guns. Still the Luger was a dream gun. I was in my mid-teens with my only source of money the few dollars I could earn in summers mowing grass. I couldn't buy one for myself.

For reasons I don't understand, the interest for guns took hold of my brain. I wanted to be a pistolero! My first handgun came to me at Christmas of 1966. It was a Ruger Standard .22 semi-automatic. The profile of that pistol is copied directly from the Luger. I loved that gun and shot it often; but man, I wanted a Luger.

A few years later, I think 1968, I got my first Luger - a 9mm P.08 marked "byf" on the toggle (Mauser code) and "41" over the chamber. It was a very common WW2 Luger in good condition and all matching except for its magazine and right grip panel. I was already into loading 9mm ammo using a Lyman 310 tool, as my first center fire pistol had been a bring-back P.38 a year or two before. Shooting this Luger was great fun.

Over the years I acquired a few Lugers, but their rapidly escalating prices made it hard along the way. I've posted a few on this forum in past years. Always on my bucket list was a 1902 Luger carbine.

Now I'm in my mid-60s. Many of life's experiences and challenges are in my rear view mirror. Just recently I ticked off another bucket list item: I corralled my Luger carbine. Yes, Kaiser Wilhelm II had one, Teddy Roosevelt had one, and now I have one!



ARGUABLY THIS IS THE VERY LAST OLD MODEL PARABELLUM EVER PRODUCED.

Woah! That's a whopping big statement. There are a lot of Luger collectors who will shake their heads from side to side.

The short argument, based on facts, goes like this:

* In 1904 DWM capped off its production of Old Model Lugers with a run of about 1600 carbines numbered from about 23400 to 25000, which was intended to be the end of Old Model production.

* This inventory of carbines slowly sold off; but as it dwindled, DWM still had on hand a trove of Old Model parts (even though the Old Model hadn't been produced since 1904.

* DWM had made one or more prototypes, and also some presentation carbines in the New Model pattern, but they didn't feel that a full production run was in their economic interest. To do a production run of New Model carbines would require further engineering and significant setup.

* To meet a residual demand for carbines, DWM assigned a block of serial numbers, 50001-50100, to a short production run of 100 carbines that would utilize the last remnants of Old Model parts still in inventory. This run required no engineering, as these carbines are identical to the older production carbines. It would use parts that otherwise would be scrapped. They made the run.

* This carbine is #50100.

In the great reference work, The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols, (Vol. II, at page 602) the authors discuss the end of Old Model production, summing it up like this:
. . . from ca. sn. 22470, are a long block of nearly a thousand 9/100 mm short frame pistols, mostly with the US Great Seal impressed over the chamber, from a known low of 22471 to ca. sn. 23400, above which, with few exceptions, are a block of ca. 1600 carbines, from sn. 23400 - 25000, which is the end of the Old Model serial range. About 100 standard Old Model carbines occupying the 50000 - 50100 block in the commercial serial number range were assembled from surplus components, probably in late 1911 / early 1912, since they bear crown/BUG proofing applied before the change to crown/N commercial proof in 1912.
Let me present a photo array. I'm not proud of this photography and it was done in hasty fashion. I was not using my normal photography setup. Believe it or not, all these photos were taken with my phone. In fact, I took them in my bedroom with only indirect natural light. The pistol and its parts were spread out on the bed.

I have tried to document this interesting pistol in hope of generating discussion. I'm a bit hesitant, because so many on this forum are experts and I am not.

It's a gorgeous example showing very little use. It has all original finishes and a perfect, like new, bore. All parts match.

The Swiss gave the Parabellum its start with the first order in the year 1900. It's poetically appropriate to see that this, quite possibly the last Old Model carbine, bears the Geneva cross in sunburst and evidently was intended for sale in Switzerland. With the piece is what appears to be a Swiss military cleaning kit or accessory (the brass bottle). I have seen these paired with surplus Sig P210 pistols. This accessory is embossed with the Swiss cross, both on its body and on its cap.

The sling appears to be original, and on inspection it certainly seems to be of proper age.

I had the old unopened box of Peters ammo. I know it's not carbine ammo, but the empty compartment called out for a box of ammo, and it had to be old.

The pistol is in a very old case that markedly resembles the cases discussed in Gortz & Sturgess. To my eye the case is contemporary to the pistol, though it may have been re-lined.



This is a link to a full resolution photo. You can click on it and get a whopper: CLICK FOR FULL RESOLUTION PHOTO.









































































































Finally, let me close by saying I know the arguments to refute the claim that this is the last Old Model Parabellum. Nobody can ever know for sure.

Thanks for your patience.

Curl

Last edited by CptCurl; 06-07-2019 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Inserted a full resolution photo.
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-20-2018, 06:29 PM   #2
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,890
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts
Default

Wow. That is simply stunning. Your assessment that this is the last Old Model carbine is almost certainly correct.


The case was made by Nolte & Olson, a saddlery in San Fransisco, probably between 1937-1942. There might be a small maker's mark stamped somewhere on the case.


--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 6 members says Thank You to Dwight Gruber for your post:
Unread 06-20-2018, 07:26 PM   #3
lugerholsterrepair
Moderator
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
lugerholsterrepair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arizona/Colorado
Posts: 7,763
Thanks: 4,868
Thanked 3,106 Times in 1,429 Posts
Default

A fantastic piece and a fantastic presentation! Nice and nicely done! Very interesting to see.
__________________
Jerry Burney
11491 S. Guadalupe Drive

Yuma AZ 85367-6182


lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net

928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round
719 207-3331 (cell)


"For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."
lugerholsterrepair is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to lugerholsterrepair for your post:
Unread 06-20-2018, 08:31 PM   #4
DonVoigt
User
 
DonVoigt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: near Charlotte NC
Posts: 4,678
Thanks: 1,441
Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts
Default

Nice! Thanks for posting.
You have done your "homework", a pleasure to read your post and see your carbine.
__________________
03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector.
Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie
DonVoigt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to DonVoigt for your post:
Unread 06-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #5
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,917
Thanks: 1,997
Thanked 4,508 Times in 2,082 Posts
Default

Besides me whining about the pictures being too big for my laptop and not posted here on the forum.

I can say.. wow....

If Dwight likes it as one of the last carbines, I'd say you have done your homework!

Beautiful. Whats the story, did it just come up on auction or you chased it down or?



Ed
__________________
Edward Tinker
************
Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers
Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Edward Tinker for your post:
Unread 06-20-2018, 08:54 PM   #6
abukafura
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
abukafura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Northeast Wisconsin, near Greeen Bay
Posts: 327
Thanks: 1,314
Thanked 89 Times in 57 Posts
Default

What a stunningly beautiful Luger, and with all the extras to go with it. To know the provence of this gun, its history, and to have such a special serial number....it doesn't get any better than this.
abukafura is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to abukafura for your post:
Unread 06-20-2018, 09:47 PM   #7
HerrKaiser
User
 
HerrKaiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 814
Thanks: 766
Thanked 813 Times in 386 Posts
Default

Absolutely gorgeous...thank you for sharing and congrats on an awesome find!
__________________
-QM

Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22
HerrKaiser is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to HerrKaiser for your post:
Unread 06-21-2018, 12:35 AM   #8
Ron Wood
Moderator
2010 LugerForum
Patron
 
Ron Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 6,994
Thanks: 1,070
Thanked 5,108 Times in 1,681 Posts
Default

That is a very beautiful and significant gun. Congratulations and thank you for sharing.
Ron
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction
Ron Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Ron Wood for your post:
Unread 06-21-2018, 06:36 AM   #9
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Thanks everybody for the kind comments. I thought I might start a firefight claiming this to have been the very last Old Model. There had to be a last one, and this one seems to have the best claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber View Post
Wow. That is simply stunning. Your assessment that this is the last Old Model carbine is almost certainly correct.


The case was made by Nolte & Olson, a saddlery in San Fransisco, probably between 1937-1942. There might be a small maker's mark stamped somewhere on the case.


--Dwight
Dwight, thanks for your information and the identification of the case. That is very helpful.

You might take note: I'm being bolder than saying it is the "last Old Model carbine." I think it is that, but my statement is more general. I think it is the last Old Model Parabellum of any configuration. That follows fairly easily if one accepts this as the last OM carbine. This batch of Old Model carbines was a fluke, evidently made long after DWM's conversion to New Model production and with no other Old Model production occurring alongside. Logic dictates that the last of this batch of OM carbines, whichever it may be, has to be the very last OM Parabellum of any style or configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Tinker View Post
Besides me whining about the pictures being too big for my laptop and not posted here on the forum.

I can say.. wow....

If Dwight likes it as one of the last carbines, I'd say you have done your homework!

Beautiful. Whats the story, did it just come up on auction or you chased it down or?



Ed
GunBroker, believe it or not!

Yes I did a lot of research after finding it needing a new home.

I welcome further comments, opinions, and discussion of this interesting Luger carbine. You guys are far more knowledgeable than I.

Curl
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-21-2018, 09:08 AM   #10
Major Tom
User
 
Major Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: S.E. Iowa
Posts: 483
Thanks: 532
Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts
Default

Stunning to say the least! I have seen newer similar carbine rigs priced upwards of $20,000.
__________________
I Build Custom Pistol Boxes
Major Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Major Tom for your post:
Unread 06-21-2018, 01:28 PM   #11
rhuff
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
rhuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Az.
Posts: 2,274
Thanks: 2,696
Thanked 961 Times in 707 Posts
Default

That is as nice of a Luger carbine "rig" as I have ever seen. It just isn't going to get any better than that, in my way of thinking. WOW, just WOW!!
__________________
Need DWM breechblock #21
rhuff is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to rhuff for your post:
Unread 06-24-2018, 10:54 AM   #12
JTD
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 424
Thanks: 217
Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts
Default

Very pretty pistol!
JTD is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to JTD for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:09 AM   #13
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default Archive photos.

The purpose of this post is to upload the original photographs to the forum servers to archive them as requested. I apologize for the redundancy.

Curl
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	detail_cased.jpg
Views:	128
Size:	196.4 KB
ID:	76008  

Click image for larger version

Name:	side_l_full.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	100.8 KB
ID:	76009  

Click image for larger version

Name:	side_r_full.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	117.3 KB
ID:	76010  

Click image for larger version

Name:	side_l.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	149.8 KB
ID:	76011  

Click image for larger version

Name:	side_r.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	137.0 KB
ID:	76012  

Click image for larger version

Name:	top_close.jpg
Views:	128
Size:	106.2 KB
ID:	76013  

Click image for larger version

Name:	grip_rear.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	92.9 KB
ID:	76014  

Click image for larger version

Name:	grip_front.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	108.4 KB
ID:	76015  

Click image for larger version

Name:	top_assy_full_l.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	77.9 KB
ID:	76016  

Click image for larger version

Name:	top_assy_l.jpg
Views:	108
Size:	124.8 KB
ID:	76017  

CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 3 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:14 AM   #14
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Continuing with the original photos for archive purposes.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	top_assy_full_r.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	71.2 KB
ID:	76018  

Click image for larger version

Name:	top_assy_r.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	117.5 KB
ID:	76019  

Click image for larger version

Name:	top_assy_b.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	126.5 KB
ID:	76020  

Attached Images
       
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 3 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:19 AM   #15
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Once again continuing with the original photos for archive purposes.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sn_frame.jpg
Views:	125
Size:	96.3 KB
ID:	76030  

Click image for larger version

Name:	sn_barrel.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	131.8 KB
ID:	76031  

Attached Images
        
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:24 AM   #16
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Still more photographs for archive purposes.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	frame_t.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	124.7 KB
ID:	76041  

Click image for larger version

Name:	frame_left.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	196.1 KB
ID:	76042  

Click image for larger version

Name:	frame_right.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	196.0 KB
ID:	76043  

Click image for larger version

Name:	grip_l_in.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	188.7 KB
ID:	76044  

Click image for larger version

Name:	grip_r_in.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	168.7 KB
ID:	76045  

Click image for larger version

Name:	forend_out.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	146.7 KB
ID:	76046  

Click image for larger version

Name:	forend_in.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	119.2 KB
ID:	76047  

Attached Images
   
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:27 AM   #17
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

More photos to archive.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_l.jpg
Views:	111
Size:	156.3 KB
ID:	76048  

Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_r.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	168.1 KB
ID:	76049  

Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_t.jpg
Views:	123
Size:	79.8 KB
ID:	76050  

Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_b.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	102.7 KB
ID:	76051  

Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_tang_t.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	169.9 KB
ID:	76052  

Click image for larger version

Name:	stock_tang_b.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	144.5 KB
ID:	76053  

CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:30 AM   #18
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Final batch of original photos for the archive.
Attached Images
       
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 2 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 03-06-2019, 06:32 AM   #19
CptCurl
User
 
CptCurl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Botetourt County, Virginia
Posts: 120
Thanks: 93
Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts
Default

I think I got all the photographs in the several posts above. I apologize for the messy nature of these uploads done for the purpose of creating an archive of my photos for the forum.

Curl
CptCurl is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 8 members says Thank You to CptCurl for your post:
Unread 10-22-2020, 07:47 PM   #20
spangy
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
spangy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 609
Thanks: 3,004
Thanked 1,048 Times in 423 Posts
Default

The stuff dreams are made of ... Thank You CptCurl
spangy is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to spangy for your post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2024, Lugerforum.com