Collectables - to shoot them or not to shoot them- that is the question

[RShaw]

Hi all,

I realize this forum is a source of much information and a wealth of experience... therefore I bring up this issue here.

If I define a "collectable" as a firearm with matching parts and mag, in at least "very good" condition - let's say whose price is less than or equal to $2,500 - clearly an unusual find which would look great in a display case and draw "oooo's and ahhh's" from those who see it... or turn heads at the range....

Are there ACTUAL STATISTICS of such collectables failing, or parts breaking.. about which we are all a bit nervous? Or does that actually occur only very occasionally? Who of you out there has "taken the gamble" only to break a part and kick yourself later?
Of course I am assuming that the basic precautions are taken- a thorough check by a competent gunsmith, using correct ammo, perhaps a new mag and springs rather than the originasl, and of course proper cleaning and maintenance.

On the one hand, as one person has said, "they can't all be safe queens." AND, "We always see advice not to shoot "valuable" collectibles here. FWIW, I've never had any part fail while shooting these guns. They were originally very well made..... I say to enjoy your guns since you truly can't take them with you. Otherwise, somebody is going to get a great deal on a nice gun -- from your estate."

However, the other side is: "Personally I don't shoot a nice matching firearm, but I have a shooter-grade or two....Chances are excellent nothing will go wrong, but... if they do it might be A Bad Thing (at the very least involving swearing and maybe some tears)" AND "The main reason for not shooting it is the potential for damaging a numbered part. These can be very difficult to replace. Parts can and do break.....Many of us would consider a matching firearm with matching magazine too valuable to shoot- for if one breaks a numbered part, he would take a hit of about 1/3 the value of the piece.

We are talking about probabilities here aren't we? Are we willing to shoot a collectable and willing to take a hit of ca $800 on a $2500 firearm?

On the other hand, a nice shooter which looks good... also costs quite a bit. So we're back to square 1 aren't we?

Maybe I just answered my own question. Thanks for reading... (if you have gotten this far)

[Norme]

Hi Robert,
You're a big boy, read this and then decide.
Regards, Norm
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...+range+failure

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by RShaw

Are there ACTUAL STATISTICS of such collectables failing, or parts breaking..

Yes. It's not complete, and most have ignored it, but there is...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=6491

[ithacaartist]

Welcome to the forum, Robert.

Your question is a perennial classic, that's for sure. Decisions about shoot/no shoot are as various as there are individual shooters or collectors.

Bottom line, it is a personal choice because a pistol is personal property. Collectors to whatever degree hope that owners consider their stewardship of history in this choice because these pistols can only be "original" once. Beyond the first replaced part, ding, or repair, none is original thereafter.

The Parabellum pistol was, of course, made to be shot. Nonetheless, elapsed time certainly does them no particular good, and it may set up the pistol for something bad to happen. Obviously, the best way to preserve one is to clean and lubricate it and store it in a secure, moisture-controlled situation.

The rule of thumb applied to breaking a matching numbered part is that it cuts its market value roughly in half. For an example in the price range you've mentioned, he hit is more of a significant percentage, not necessarily an unbearable dollar amount.

My approach is to collect mostly "interesting shooters" which might be matching, but have a condition or cosmetic issues, so their value already is within the shooter category. Extractor disintegrates? No biggie, it's already a shooter, so reduction in value according to the mishap is minimal.

It is a good idea, for guns that are on the line between collectible and shooter categories, to swap commonly vulnerable parts out with replacements. You want a "fluted" firing pin in any Imperial Luger, which were issued with the non-relieved variety. Original extractor, ejector, grips, and mag are the usual components one would use stand-ins for. However, if you don't know that there's a stress crack that has developed in a toggle link, barrel extension, or breech block, this won't be protected by swapping the other parts. And, trust me, stress cracks don't get better by themselves or with further use!

A Luger pistol really doesn't have to be that pretty to gain attention at the range. I use my '06 AE with a new 6" bbl. still in the white for IDPA matches. Last time one guy even asked me to do a basic show-and-tell, which he recorded his phone. People notice. It's a Luger, after all! This frees you up to obtain a shooter pistol with issues, but still quite dependably shootable. "Pretty" = $, so if pitting, finish loss, and wear don't affect integrity or function, going "funky" is a great way to economize. You'll be able to find a pretty shooter not much North of $1k if you're patient, and I doubt that unless you're really lucky, you'll be able to come up with a strictly collectible gun anywhere near that price unless you actually steal one or encounter that mostly mythological sweet deal.

Everyone balances risks and rewards when shooting any firearm. Risking potential mechanical/financial damage and/or personal injury (or death) is weighed against the reward, which is the shooting experience itself. Others will chime in soon, I'm sure, with opinions and advice for this complex, sometimes emotional question, so take all our collective pointers and advice into consideration and use it to inform your choice. Experienced, hard-core collectors lean away from using matching, original guns.

[RShaw]

Well, thanks for the site references- that Erfurt failure was pretty scary. And on the third shot!! I'm not unaware of the the fact that if you fire X rounds without incident, that such a failure could certainly happen the next time. By definition, the probability goes up of course.

Ah yes- I'll look for a shooter. My matching 1917 DWM is the first Luger I have ever seen, let alone owned. Enough said. Thanks guys....

[RShaw]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RShaw View Post
Are there ACTUAL STATISTICS of such collectables failing, or parts breaking..
Yes. It's not complete, and most have ignored it, but there is...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=6491

Sheepherder- MANY thanks for the stats.... interesting!!

ithacaartist- points well taken, thanks a lot!

[Edward Tinker]

I can say that I have had two 'shooter' breechblocks fail on me. One was with regular 9mm the other with hot 9mm.

I am not a huge shooter, so this is just what has happened to me. Again, on shooters, I have had other numbered parts break.

if I had been shooting a $1500 or $2500 Luger, I would have been pretty upset.

You shoot yours and you takes your chances.

[DonVoigt]

I avoid the question by having too many firearms to shoot them all; that way I don't feel the need to fire every collectible that crosses my path and comes home with me.

I would not shoot a luger with matching small parts, nor use a matching magazine. The parts are impossible to replace- there is only one truly original numbered part for each luger(though some search for parts with the same digits); reproduction magazines are cheap and also work well-better than many originals.

I have 8 or 7 shooter lugers, in essentially all configurations and calibers- so when the urge strikes- I just shoot one of them. Bought some, built some- that is what I really enjoy- the hands on; collectibles sit in the safe or shared by examination with friends who appreciate them.

I finally got the last shooter acquisition to work today- a 1900 7,65mm- common model that someone had already re-finished and cobbled up with replacement parts.

A previous owner probably broke an original breech block and/or extractor - those were missing and replaced with P 08 parts. It took me two weeks to finally discern that they had also changed the S link on the original rear toggle for a P 08 type- the 1900 S link is shorter- and works with the leaf spring.

The wrong one screws up the closing pressure of the toggle!
Which is probably why this nice looking piece ended up for sale.

Bottom line- Buy a Shooter!

[mrerick]

So, Robert, after years of answering this question (I am in the "don't shoot collectible guns / get a non-collectible shooter camp) I'm starting to come around to a more cynical view.

You've seen the statistics. You may have seen the "after action" photographs. You understand that breakage of numbered parts in 100 year old guns happens. You appear to have reacted to the earlier advice with good judgement. That's good.

To the others that just have to shoot collectible guns anyway, go ahead.

The quantity of collectible firearms is never going to increase because they are not making them anymore. If you break yours, mine will increase in value because of supply and demand. The downside is that we lose just a little bit more history in the process.

BTW, I have Dwight's broken parts survey info in the FAQ.

Marc

[MikeP]

I used to shoot my matching pieces.
I just don't anymore.
I have plenty of guns to shoot.
I have broken a safety lever on a luger and had a sheared breachblock lug on a P 38 which tore the slide open at the strap.

[4 Scale]

My personal calculus on this is:
1. Cosmetically acceptable shooters cost about $1,100;
2. A numbered part breaking reduces the value of the Luger by say 1/2;
3. Therefore any Luger valued at $2,200 or less is a shooter candidate ($1,100 x 2 = $2,200), and those valued above this level shouldn't be fired.

This calculation basically uses the $1,100 shooter cost as a sort of market indicator of risk tolerance, i.e. you shouldn't spend more for insurance than you might lose if you didn't have insurance.

I have a couple collectibles that I value at under $2,000, and I do shoot them occasionally, but when shooting any collectible I swap the parts most likely to break (grips, extractor, ejector, firing pin, hold open, rear toggle axel pin).

Any Luger will turn heads at the range, even those with significant cosmetic flaws.

In particular, I'm fairly comfortable shooting collectible Mauser Lugers with a value of less than $2,000 or so, as the metallurgy was better on those and the risk of breakage therefore somewhat lower than on earlier pistols. I'm also somewhat comfortable shooting .30 Luger collectibles valued under $2,000, as that cartridge has less energy than 9mm and it just feels (subjectively) like a tamer round and therefore less likely to cause breakage.

So I've settled on this sort of hybrid approach. I think each collector must assess their own tolerance for risk and reach their own conclusions on this.

[RShaw]

Hi Edward, Don, Marc, Mike, Greg-
Many thanks for all your comments and patience. I've concluded that my DWM will not be shot, but saved to pass on to the children, and to keep history alive...

I'm only now discovering the "collector side of me" having been more a shooter all my life.
This DWM is the first Luger I have ever seen... I thought, "WOW!" This piece, together with a P38 (ac43) were being sold by a gunsmith friend of mine.

I couldn't pass them up.

Once an all original piece is gone, it's gone.

I'll go out and take my time to find a few good shooters

You all have a good day

[mrerick]

Robert, it's good that you're open and came to the forum to discuss this and other Luger related interests.

In fact, not enough people with an interest are motivated to do that.

Since first coming here to the forum years ago, I have appreciated how valuable it is.

The people here are open, experienced, sharing and bring valuable understanding to the many phases of collecting these unique handguns. Some members have an almost unfathomable depth of understanding of Lugers, their history and details of their construction.

I hope that you sense that you are welcome here, and also valued for your interest in the Luger pistol. The fascinating thing about them is the depth of history, precision, and human experience that they represent. The mature approach to collecting them is very rewarding.

All of us remember the very first one we bought and held in our hands. It's a very special memory, and that pistol will always remain with us.

Now, if only there was a twelve step program.... these finely sculpted metal tools do prove addictive...

[RShaw]

Yes.... I do sense I am welcome here, thank you
Living here in the Netherlands and having worked in Germany for so many years has given me an appreciation of European history which I highly value.

This appreciation has been greatly supplimented by learning about and handling these special firearms.

Now I am REALLY motivated to read, learn (and post).... and find a good shooter I can take to the range without being nervous, or feeling guilty or foolish by shooting.

[Zonaken]

Great thread and great info/advice.
Hope you don't mind me eating up all of this info too...
Zk

[RShaw]

A little more food for thought for you- a similar thread in a more general forum:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=578545

I admit that I was wavering about shooting collectibles (being basically a shooter myself) until I viewed the following website:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...+range+failure

My collectible(s) will not be shot after seeing all this......

That being said, have a look at this website:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/w...-dollar-luger/
Somewhere there's a video of this test- wish I could find it again!! But this account tells it all.

Lots of very nice and fully reliable shooters out there to "scratch the itch" as one forum member aptly put it. My P38 shooter keeps me happy for now.

[spacecoast]

I was a part of that survey on The Firing Line, and answered #2... "it depends". I have a > $2000 Colt Single Action Army in .44-40 (100 years old) that shoots great and which I am unafraid to shoot a limited amount. Same with a 115 year old Colt Bisley. I also have a fairly valuable Remington New Model Army from the Civil War that is now over 150 years old and also shoots great. It's highly uncommon for the large parts of such guns to break under normal use due to their simple and robust design, and they do not have many small parts, numbered or otherwise, like a Luger. That said, I wouldn't want to damage any of them in any way and therefore use an appropriate amount of care.

Another factor to my advantage with nearly all my firearms is that I load my own ammo for them and so I know and control exactly what I use to feed them, and act accordingly. Those that are capable and still in their prime get anything and everything up to eye-watering .44 magnum loads that would make Clint Eastwood blush. But I give the old guns a break and don't shoot the "collectible" Lugers (and certain Colts for that matter) that might break in normal use and would be difficult if not impossible to replace.

[RShaw]

Hi Spacecoast,
I answered "keep as a safe queen" in that survey, but then I was referring to my collectible 1917 DWM. One comment in there or somewhere else... referred to the few moving parts of a revolver versus the complex mechanism of the P08. That was a good point.... Shooting the revolver would pose less of a risk than shooting a P08 of similar age and "metal quality."

Your assortment of firearms sounds very impressive!!

I had a 45 Colt SSA (not one quite like yours though) when I lived in the US- was a wonderful gun. I also loaded my own ammo... In your circumstances I would be more prone to take out the "collectible" once in a while.. but yes, exercizing great care for sure. Even then, only on rare occasions with triple checked ammo. BUT.. had to sell the Colt when I moved here.

Also found a flintlock civil war musket in my grandfather's attic which I thoroughly enjoyed restoring... found a bayonet for it, replaced a few parts, found an authentic piece of flint for it- had a brass pan... but no way would I ifre that gun. Strictly a piece of history. Learned a lot in the process. My Dad has it now.

Have decided not to shoot my first Luger, a collectible..... but my 1918 DWM shooter will make frequent trips to the range when I can bring her home this August.

[kurusu]

Got to add something.

I am mainly a shooter. But I would resist the temptation of buying an Imperial Luger (or older) as a serious shooter. They are in the most cases 100 plus years old.

If shooter grade, they are either in very poor condition, not good for any shooting pistol, or heavily mismatched, not good for a Luger.

As an example I've switched some parts of my shooter Mausers and the results were appalling.

I remember that once a friend of mine inadvertently reassembled one of his with the sear bar of another and had chain fires. Never funny with a pistol.

My preference goes to late Mausers, they are newer and sturdier. Are the most common of them all. To really be a collectible it has to have 95% finish or better and be all matching to the 2 issued magazines.

[RShaw]

Hi Kurusu,
I have also understood that the metal quality of Mauser P08's is better than that of DWM. I can imagine that a matched shooter would be a better risk than a mismatched piece. Appreciate your comment, thanks