Inherited family treasure

Spanner · 10-27-2016, 10:29 PM

My dad has had this since he was 11. That was as a boy in Holland in 1945. It was that one thing I looked at as a family treasure. Lots of mixed info that I have found and trying to figure out a manufactured time would be nice. My 1st WWII firearm but I hunt deer with an Eddystone Model 1917. I love and respect these old weapons. But firing it isn't necessary either. Was considering having it inspected by my gunsmith and taking it to the range if possible. I've included a picture of the spare magazine and what I believe to be the cartridges that were in the magazine when he got it. This was April 1945. He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in.

Edward Tinker · 10-27-2016, 10:37 PM

Wow, at first I did not like the shiny of the bluing (thinking reblued), but that is what is tricky about internet pictures.

Really nice. 1685a would be the 11,685th Simson luger made by them. The highest serial number I have is 1888a - and Simson ended production sometime in 1934 - so a wild guess would say that yours was made around 1933?

Really nice having the matching magazine. NOTE that yours although an S toggle, does NOT have a sear safety, many do. A sear safety equals police usage.

I would be curious to know the area your dad found this? For several reasons, one reason is that I lived in the Netherlands for seven years (1993-2000).

Ed

Spanner · 10-27-2016, 10:44 PM

Dinxperlo in the Gelderland.

Edward Tinker · 10-27-2016, 10:50 PM

I don't know that town, will look it up, although I know where Gelderland is.

Fascinating, have been close, but not there that I remember. The town I lived in was the same, literally had a street shared by the Netherlands and Germany (like his town)...

We had CEC sites (combat equipment sites) 'up north' by Coevorden, and several along the border in Germany, so I traveled all over.

Ed

Spanner · 10-27-2016, 10:53 PM

Overloon is where the bloodiest tank battle ever on Holland soil took place. Month after Market Garden. So about 45 minutes from Arnhem We won that one but the 7th Armor got pretty beat up.

CJS57 · 10-28-2016, 07:06 AM

So the high polish blue on this gun is original and correct for Simson's?

wlyon · 10-28-2016, 09:25 AM

I still think this luger has been reblued. Bill

John Sabato · 10-28-2016, 09:34 AM

I agree with Bill. It is a wonderful family heirloom, and as Ed has identified, one of the Simson's manufacture--- but it has been reblued. Much polishing has taken place and pits have been blued over.

Eugen · 10-28-2016, 09:43 AM

You have a wonderful family heirloom with exciting personal history (that you shared in another thread). Enjoy it.

cirelaw · 10-28-2016, 09:56 AM

Every luger has a story! Unfortunatly most have been forgotten~

Spanner · 10-28-2016, 10:07 AM

If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Certainly can not deny something that could have been done prior to his possession of it.

alanint · 10-31-2016, 10:22 AM

Agreed on the reblue. It is also missing the takedown lever spring.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-31-2016, 10:32 AM

If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Not necessarily. People do things we don't know about all the time even though we may live in the same house.

Such as... He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in.

Your Father likely had it spruced up and never said anything to you about it.

Spanner · 10-31-2016, 11:44 AM

Thanks for all the comments. I have an appointment with my gunsmith on Saturday and we're going to disassemble, clean and inspect. I'll report back with what he discovers. I'm okay with the truth and I'll leave that up to the professionals

wlyon · 10-31-2016, 01:13 PM

Just don't count on many gunsmiths knowing anything about lugers. Bill

Spanner · 10-31-2016, 02:19 PM

Agreed Bill but this is one I trust.

sheepherder · 10-31-2016, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanner

Agreed Bill but this is one I trust.

I trust my local gunsmith too. But when he gets a Luger in, he calls me.

(Because he knows I read the threads here!)

Vlim · 11-01-2016, 01:22 PM

If you need a second opinion let me know. I am not too far away from you.

mrerick · 11-01-2016, 04:21 PM

Hello David, and welcome to the forum.

You have a rather rare Simson & Co. manufactured Luger that was one of the last they made during 1933 at the very end of the Weimar Republic. Less than 12,000 (total) were made by this company, and all the parts in it were marked with inspection die stamps. This makes them unique as well.

The photos showing the very dark bluing with edges that appear rounded gives the impression that it was refinished. So do the pitted areas of the trigger plate that appear to be blued over. This appearance may be due to the lighting which is uneven and not flat - and that can tend to change the actual way the surfaces look.

An experienced collector can determine the originality of the finish by inspecting it in hand.

A very small number of gunsmiths have any experience working with Lugers. Use extreme care allowing an inexperienced gunsmith to disassemble your gun. Like doctors, gunsmiths will rarely tell you what they do not know.

While a refinish would affect collector valuation, these pistols are so rare (and finding one with it's original magazine, even more rare) that there is still considerable interest.

If you have a holster with it, do not store it in that holster. That can lead to the corrosion you see on the trigger plate. If it is missing the takedown lever spring, replace it prior to trying to fire it.

Most of us do not recommend firing collectable or rare Lugers because numbered and marked parts are next to impossible to replace.

The headstamp on the base of the ammo will help someone here determine when it was made, and by whom...

Congratulations. Thanks for sharing it! Marc

Eugen · 11-01-2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Like doctors, gunsmiths will rarely tell you what they do not know.

mrerick, as a hospital CEO, I can vouch for that advice about doctors.

Your post in general provided some excellent advice and comments.

10-27-2016, 10:29 PM	#1
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	Inherited family treasure My dad has had this since he was 11. That was as a boy in Holland in 1945. It was that one thing I looked at as a family treasure. Lots of mixed info that I have found and trying to figure out a manufactured time would be nice. My 1st WWII firearm but I hunt deer with an Eddystone Model 1917. I love and respect these old weapons. But firing it isn't necessary either. Was considering having it inspected by my gunsmith and taking it to the range if possible. I've included a picture of the spare magazine and what I believe to be the cartridges that were in the magazine when he got it. This was April 1945. He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in. Attached Thumbnails

10-27-2016, 10:37 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Wow, at first I did not like the shiny of the bluing (thinking reblued), but that is what is tricky about internet pictures. Really nice. 1685a would be the 11,685th Simson luger made by them. The highest serial number I have is 1888a - and Simson ended production sometime in 1934 - so a wild guess would say that yours was made around 1933? Really nice having the matching magazine. NOTE that yours although an S toggle, does NOT have a sear safety, many do. A sear safety equals police usage. I would be curious to know the area your dad found this? For several reasons, one reason is that I lived in the Netherlands for seven years (1993-2000). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-28-2016, 09:25 AM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	I still think this luger has been reblued. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-28-2016, 09:34 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I agree with Bill. It is a wonderful family heirloom, and as Ed has identified, one of the Simson's manufacture--- but it has been reblued. Much polishing has taken place and pits have been blued over. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-28-2016, 09:43 AM	#9
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 768 Thanks: 372 Thanked 603 Times in 320 Posts	You have a wonderful family heirloom with exciting personal history (that you shared in another thread). Enjoy it. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

10-27-2016, 10:44 PM	#3
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	Dinxperlo in the Gelderland.

10-27-2016, 10:50 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I don't know that town, will look it up, although I know where Gelderland is. Fascinating, have been close, but not there that I remember. The town I lived in was the same, literally had a street shared by the Netherlands and Germany (like his town)... We had CEC sites (combat equipment sites) 'up north' by Coevorden, and several along the border in Germany, so I traveled all over. Ed

10-27-2016, 10:53 PM	#5
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	Overloon is where the bloodiest tank battle ever on Holland soil took place. Month after Market Garden. So about 45 minutes from Arnhem We won that one but the 7th Armor got pretty beat up.

10-28-2016, 07:06 AM	#6
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	So the high polish blue on this gun is original and correct for Simson's?

10-28-2016, 09:56 AM	#10
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Every luger has a story! Unfortunatly most have been forgotten~

10-28-2016, 10:07 AM	#11
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Certainly can not deny something that could have been done prior to his possession of it.

10-31-2016, 10:22 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Agreed on the reblue. It is also missing the takedown lever spring.

10-31-2016, 10:32 AM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	If it was reblued it was done prior to 1945. Not necessarily. People do things we don't know about all the time even though we may live in the same house. Such as... He used to keep it wrapped up in a cloth but at some time in the last 25 years he got a P38 holster I didn't realize he had been storing it in. Your Father likely had it spruced up and never said anything to you about it. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-31-2016, 11:44 AM	#14
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	Thanks for all the comments. I have an appointment with my gunsmith on Saturday and we're going to disassemble, clean and inspect. I'll report back with what he discovers. I'm okay with the truth and I'll leave that up to the professionals

10-31-2016, 01:13 PM	#15
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	Just don't count on many gunsmiths knowing anything about lugers. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-31-2016, 02:19 PM	#16
Spanner User Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 65 Thanks: 29 Thanked 58 Times in 21 Posts	Agreed Bill but this is one I trust.

11-01-2016, 01:22 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,046 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,946 Times in 1,197 Posts	If you need a second opinion let me know. I am not too far away from you.

11-01-2016, 04:21 PM	#19
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hello David, and welcome to the forum. You have a rather rare Simson & Co. manufactured Luger that was one of the last they made during 1933 at the very end of the Weimar Republic. Less than 12,000 (total) were made by this company, and all the parts in it were marked with inspection die stamps. This makes them unique as well. The photos showing the very dark bluing with edges that appear rounded gives the impression that it was refinished. So do the pitted areas of the trigger plate that appear to be blued over. This appearance may be due to the lighting which is uneven and not flat - and that can tend to change the actual way the surfaces look. An experienced collector can determine the originality of the finish by inspecting it in hand. A very small number of gunsmiths have any experience working with Lugers. Use extreme care allowing an inexperienced gunsmith to disassemble your gun. Like doctors, gunsmiths will rarely tell you what they do not know. While a refinish would affect collector valuation, these pistols are so rare (and finding one with it's original magazine, even more rare) that there is still considerable interest. If you have a holster with it, do not store it in that holster. That can lead to the corrosion you see on the trigger plate. If it is missing the takedown lever spring, replace it prior to trying to fire it. Most of us do not recommend firing collectable or rare Lugers because numbered and marked parts are next to impossible to replace. The headstamp on the base of the ammo will help someone here determine when it was made, and by whom... Congratulations. Thanks for sharing it! Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.