1941-2 Luger Black Widow Grips

johnb55 · 06-29-2016, 06:53 PM

I have looked at a couple pairs of these grips and was wondering if there is an easy way to tell real from fake. I heard fake ones are made from plastic and will make a different sound when hit against a table. Any info greatly appreciated.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-29-2016, 07:03 PM

John, There is always the hot pin test. Heat a hat pin to glowing red. Touch it to the back of a grip. It will plunge into plastic and smoke like crazy. Bakalite it will skate over.

johnb55 · 06-29-2016, 07:22 PM

That might not go over well with the owner of the shop. I did notice that there was a different number of threaded holes on each set of grips.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-29-2016, 09:24 PM

That might not go over well with the owner of the shop I don't know why not. It will confirm what he has one way or another.

CAP Black · 06-29-2016, 10:06 PM

Many gunshop owners wouldn't like for anyone to alter the item and then not purchase it. Ignorance is bliss, you know.
Jack

lugerholsterrepair · 06-29-2016, 10:23 PM

Seems like the exercise would be a learning moment for a gun shop owner wishing to expand on his knowledge base. Knowledge is power.
Just as an aside..there is a very good tutorial over on Jans site on bakalite grips. I used it recently to authenticate a set of black grips. AFTER I tried the pin test to tell me they were genuine bakalite. Once I had that figured out..I spent an hour studying to tell me everything I wanted to know about the type. Just SEARCH black grips and you will find it.

johnb55 · 06-30-2016, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the info. I am checking out a p08 that gun shop advertises as a black widow today. This is a second look at the pistol. I have had the grips off and field stripped the Luger. I will mention your test and let you know what he says and does.

John Sabato · 06-30-2016, 10:54 AM

If you can, take good quality sharp focus photos of both the inside and outside of the grips and we should be able to tell you if they are genuine original bakelite or plastic reproductions without "smoke checking" them.

alanint · 06-30-2016, 11:04 AM

Bakelite grips are very smooth on the back, with no bubbles or surface imperfections. The threads in the screw keeper holes are sharp, with crisp edges. there is no warpage on originals, if they have been kept well. Under bright light, they have color nuances within them, especially at the edges, where plastic is very uniform. take the two grips and gently knock them together. Real bakelite with "clack" like a set of castanets.

johnb55 · 07-01-2016, 01:25 PM

Hi to all .... I was not able to make up my mind on the Black Widow I have been looking at. THe gun shop owner assured me that grips were real. He did mention that real grips clank when hit against something. I mentioned the hot needle and he said he had not heard about test. I am not sure which grip had 2 threaded holes and the other had one. This added more questions about the gun. He also mentioned that only black widow lugers had P08 stamped on the side of the gun. To me that seemed false. I am kinda new to Lugers been into p38's. I was wondering what the board feels about proof marks and what condition is acceptable for a collector grade gun. I see many really nice guns (been kept in a desk drawer during the war) with faint proofs markings. Is that a sign that work has been done on a gun? Lately a lot of guns turning up, the hunt continues.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-01-2016, 01:50 PM

John, real grips clank when hit against something. Your clank is my clink.

The hot pin test is the only diffinitive test. It will NOT HURT genuine bakalite. It will simply bounce off and skate on it. No smoke, no penetration. So ...if the grips are real..no harm. If fake.. there will be a puff of white smoke and a small pin hole on the backside of $29 grips. Stupidly simple.

kurusu · 07-01-2016, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnb55

Hi to all .... I was not able to make up my mind on the Black Widow I have been looking at. THe gun shop owner assured me that grips were real. He did mention that real grips clank when hit against something. I mentioned the hot needle and he said he had not heard about test. I am not sure which grip had 2 threaded holes and the other had one. This added more questions about the gun. He also mentioned that only black widow lugers had P08 stamped on the side of the gun. To me that seemed false. I am kinda new to Lugers been into p38's. I was wondering what the board feels about proof marks and what condition is acceptable for a collector grade gun. I see many really nice guns (been kept in a desk drawer during the war) with faint proofs markings. Is that a sign that work has been done on a gun? Lately a lot of guns turning up, the hunt continues.

Well, for starters, there's no such thing as "black widows". All byf 41 and byf 42 have P.08 stamped on them. Regardless of the type of grip panels used.

johnb55 · 07-07-2016, 04:14 PM

Thanks Jerry for your very simple test. I ended up passing on the pistol. If I remember correctly, I did see some bubbles on the back of the grips. Grips could have been real but they were also a little beat up so I passed. I am going to start taking pics in future. Thanks to everyone else who had input. The hunt continues

DonVoigt · 07-07-2016, 08:38 PM

John,
good choice. Bubbles are a 99% reproduction indication in my experience; not only for luger grips but for any plastic grips.

dnickels · 07-08-2016, 08:15 AM

Real grips are molded under pressure so there should not be air bubbles. The molds used were also of a good quality so the inside of the parts are neat and clean. A lot of repro grips are rubber mold copies based off a real grip and cast in epoxy or some other material and usually done from a less sophisticated molding set up or even open faced molds. Modern injection molded grips in plastic, as noted above, will have different properties than bakelite or acetate used in the WW1 and WW2 years.

GKITCH · 08-23-2016, 09:47 AM

I recently bought a 41 Black widow with wood grips that appear to be original to the gun. I am VERY new to Lugers...so were wood grips common on 41 pistols or has the gun potentially been tampered with?

John Sabato · 08-23-2016, 09:52 AM

It would be impossible to tell if the wood grips were original to the gun from the factory, or if they were replacements at some point in the guns life... Are they numbered to the gun? that would be an indicator.

"Some" Mausers during this period did leave the factory with wood grips... and some (the majority) left with the black bakelite grips. I would consider them to be original to the gun unless you have some evidence that they were of later or aftermarket production.

Just my $0.02

CJS57 · 08-23-2016, 10:17 AM

Gkitch, your 41byf luger with wood grips is what I call a Brown widow. Black widow is a collectors term for guns with the black grips. As far as rarity goes I believe there are more wood grips seen on 1941 byf's than guns with the black bakelite.

22 short · 08-23-2016, 10:31 AM

spray 409 on a Qtip, rub on the back of the grip, if the Qtip turns yellow its bakelite, my wife collects bakelite jewelry and this is the standard test, does not damage the bakelite

sheepherder · 08-23-2016, 10:36 AM

I did a Search on Jan's forum for 'black grips' and got 29 pages of threads.

That tutorial on Bakelite grips would be a good addition to the FAQ here.

Perhaps someone might email or post the URL to Ed so he could negotiate with the poster to add it to this forums FAQ???

06-29-2016, 06:53 PM	#1
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	1941-2 Luger Black Widow Grips I have looked at a couple pairs of these grips and was wondering if there is an easy way to tell real from fake. I heard fake ones are made from plastic and will make a different sound when hit against a table. Any info greatly appreciated.

06-29-2016, 07:03 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,762 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,102 Times in 1,428 Posts	John, There is always the hot pin test. Heat a hat pin to glowing red. Touch it to the back of a grip. It will plunge into plastic and smoke like crazy. Bakalite it will skate over. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-29-2016, 09:24 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,762 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,102 Times in 1,428 Posts	That might not go over well with the owner of the shop I don't know why not. It will confirm what he has one way or another. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-29-2016, 10:23 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,762 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,102 Times in 1,428 Posts	Seems like the exercise would be a learning moment for a gun shop owner wishing to expand on his knowledge base. Knowledge is power. Just as an aside..there is a very good tutorial over on Jans site on bakalite grips. I used it recently to authenticate a set of black grips. AFTER I tried the pin test to tell me they were genuine bakalite. Once I had that figured out..I spent an hour studying to tell me everything I wanted to know about the type. Just SEARCH black grips and you will find it. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-30-2016, 10:54 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If you can, take good quality sharp focus photos of both the inside and outside of the grips and we should be able to tell you if they are genuine original bakelite or plastic reproductions without "smoke checking" them. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-29-2016, 07:22 PM	#3
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	That might not go over well with the owner of the shop. I did notice that there was a different number of threaded holes on each set of grips.

06-29-2016, 10:06 PM	#5
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Many gunshop owners wouldn't like for anyone to alter the item and then not purchase it. Ignorance is bliss, you know. Jack

06-30-2016, 07:41 AM	#7
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks for the info. I am checking out a p08 that gun shop advertises as a black widow today. This is a second look at the pistol. I have had the grips off and field stripped the Luger. I will mention your test and let you know what he says and does.

06-30-2016, 11:04 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Bakelite grips are very smooth on the back, with no bubbles or surface imperfections. The threads in the screw keeper holes are sharp, with crisp edges. there is no warpage on originals, if they have been kept well. Under bright light, they have color nuances within them, especially at the edges, where plastic is very uniform. take the two grips and gently knock them together. Real bakelite with "clack" like a set of castanets.

07-01-2016, 01:25 PM	#10
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Hi to all .... I was not able to make up my mind on the Black Widow I have been looking at. THe gun shop owner assured me that grips were real. He did mention that real grips clank when hit against something. I mentioned the hot needle and he said he had not heard about test. I am not sure which grip had 2 threaded holes and the other had one. This added more questions about the gun. He also mentioned that only black widow lugers had P08 stamped on the side of the gun. To me that seemed false. I am kinda new to Lugers been into p38's. I was wondering what the board feels about proof marks and what condition is acceptable for a collector grade gun. I see many really nice guns (been kept in a desk drawer during the war) with faint proofs markings. Is that a sign that work has been done on a gun? Lately a lot of guns turning up, the hunt continues.

07-01-2016, 01:50 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,762 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,102 Times in 1,428 Posts	John, real grips clank when hit against something. Your clank is my clink. The hot pin test is the only diffinitive test. It will NOT HURT genuine bakalite. It will simply bounce off and skate on it. No smoke, no penetration. So ...if the grips are real..no harm. If fake.. there will be a puff of white smoke and a small pin hole on the backside of $29 grips. Stupidly simple. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-07-2016, 04:14 PM	#13
johnb55 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: New Jersey Posts: 22 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Jerry for your very simple test. I ended up passing on the pistol. If I remember correctly, I did see some bubbles on the back of the grips. Grips could have been real but they were also a little beat up so I passed. I am going to start taking pics in future. Thanks to everyone else who had input. The hunt continues

07-07-2016, 08:38 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	John, good choice. Bubbles are a 99% reproduction indication in my experience; not only for luger grips but for any plastic grips. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-08-2016, 08:15 AM	#15
dnickels User Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 24 Times in 8 Posts	Real grips are molded under pressure so there should not be air bubbles. The molds used were also of a good quality so the inside of the parts are neat and clean. A lot of repro grips are rubber mold copies based off a real grip and cast in epoxy or some other material and usually done from a less sophisticated molding set up or even open faced molds. Modern injection molded grips in plastic, as noted above, will have different properties than bakelite or acetate used in the WW1 and WW2 years.

08-23-2016, 09:47 AM	#16
GKITCH User Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 9 Thanks: 14 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I recently bought a 41 Black widow with wood grips that appear to be original to the gun. I am VERY new to Lugers...so were wood grips common on 41 pistols or has the gun potentially been tampered with?

08-23-2016, 09:52 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	It would be impossible to tell if the wood grips were original to the gun from the factory, or if they were replacements at some point in the guns life... Are they numbered to the gun? that would be an indicator. "Some" Mausers during this period did leave the factory with wood grips... and some (the majority) left with the black bakelite grips. I would consider them to be original to the gun unless you have some evidence that they were of later or aftermarket production. Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-23-2016, 10:17 AM	#18
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	Gkitch, your 41byf luger with wood grips is what I call a Brown widow. Black widow is a collectors term for guns with the black grips. As far as rarity goes I believe there are more wood grips seen on 1941 byf's than guns with the black bakelite.

08-23-2016, 10:31 AM	#19
22 short User Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 19 Thanks: 15 Thanked 8 Times in 3 Posts	spray 409 on a Qtip, rub on the back of the grip, if the Qtip turns yellow its bakelite, my wife collects bakelite jewelry and this is the standard test, does not damage the bakelite

08-23-2016, 10:36 AM	#20
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	I did a Search on Jan's forum for 'black grips' and got 29 pages of threads. That tutorial on Bakelite grips would be a good addition to the FAQ here. Perhaps someone might email or post the URL to Ed so he could negotiate with the poster to add it to this forums FAQ??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...