1916 Artillery luger currently for sale

Tomathvl · 06-03-2016, 07:55 PM

Currently there’s a 1916 Artillery Luger for sale that is advertised as all original. I wrongfully commented about this gun in the For Sale section and that is not permitted. My comments as well as others were rightfully removed. I commented because a few folks on this forum and Jan’s forum were making IMO exaggerated statements in the For Sale post regarding the condition of this Luger.
There’s no way that this Luger is in original condition. The side plate has been sanded as shown by the vertical line adjacent to the raised portion of the side plate. It also appears the bluing on the side plate has been touched up. I asked in the original post to see the halos on the barrel serial numbers because they are not shown in the photos. They may or may not be there.
Not trying to start trouble but when uniformed folks make false statements I feel obligated to protect new collectors from making a bad decision.

DavidJayUden · 06-03-2016, 08:30 PM

Maybe a few good photos would clear things up?
dju

Eugen · 06-03-2016, 09:15 PM

I am here to listen and learn.

tudorbug · 06-04-2016, 10:53 AM

Thank you for opening this thread!

David

Tomathvl · 06-04-2016, 11:13 AM

Eugen.
You said you were here to learn. Here are two photos from current guns on the forum. The first shows a unmolested side plate. Notice how the raised portion of the plate blends into the flat surface. No steps or marks to indicate any attempt to modify the surface.

Second photo: Notice the step where the raised portion is supposed to blend into the flat surface. There is a step above the raised portion that shows the left side of the plate to be higher than the right side. This didn’t leave the DWM factory like this. From here on using only the photo is all opinion. The side plate has been ground down to remove something. A blemish, a serial number, or???. The finish appears splotchy as being touched up.

All original side plates should look like the first photo as far as metal relationship and metal finish, not talking about bluing. There are different shaped side plates depending on when and who made them i.e. early DWM and Swiss and others. However, if you notice sand, grind, file marks and/or steps in the surface finish this is due most likely to somebody attempting to modify it in some way.
Perhaps others can show photo examples that will explain this better.

4 Scale · 06-04-2016, 11:21 AM

In an oblique photo of the barrel, and also on the receiver serial, there seem to be halos. I don't know if Artillery pistols are supposed to show halos on the receiver serial.

Photos I'm referring to are in this thread. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...very-fortunate Overall I believe better and more complete photos would be appropriate given the asking price.

Regarding the side plate I also suspect re-blue, because I actually have a re-blued side plate on a shooter that has a similar line, added when the part was re-blued.

In this thread, the seller asks questions about a 1917 Artillery stock.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...er-Stock-legal However the pistol is marked 1916 and in the 'sale' thread I don't see any mention of selling a stock/holster with the pistol, puzzling.

Personally if paying +$4,000 for any collectible firearm I would require either a pre-sale personal inspection or an expert assessment.

4 Scale · 06-04-2016, 11:37 AM

Here is a photo of the re-blued side plate from my '38 shooter. It is an aftermarket part, originally had a rough salt blue finish which was removed and the part was then rust blued. I paid for the work and am therefore certain of this description. The sanding line is quite visible above the side plate 'hump'.

alanint · 06-04-2016, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Regarding the side plate I also suspect re-blue, because I actually have a re-blued side plate on a shooter that has a similar line, added when the part was re-blued.

It is more than re blued. It is RE MARKED. There is no other reason other than bad pitting or corrosion for this surface grinding to have been done. Although someone took the trouble to closely match the font and size of the numbers, the fact remains that the sideplate is not original to the pistol and if sold without clarifying this fact, it is an attempt to deceive.

Tomathvl · 06-04-2016, 12:15 PM

Another example from forum post of unmolested side plate. See how raised portion blends into the side plate.

Tomathvl · 06-05-2016, 08:31 AM

This discussion has taken on another life on Jan's forum.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...d=1#post407929

06-03-2016, 07:55 PM	#1
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	1916 Artillery luger currently for sale Currently there’s a 1916 Artillery Luger for sale that is advertised as all original. I wrongfully commented about this gun in the For Sale section and that is not permitted. My comments as well as others were rightfully removed. I commented because a few folks on this forum and Jan’s forum were making IMO exaggerated statements in the For Sale post regarding the condition of this Luger. There’s no way that this Luger is in original condition. The side plate has been sanded as shown by the vertical line adjacent to the raised portion of the side plate. It also appears the bluing on the side plate has been touched up. I asked in the original post to see the halos on the barrel serial numbers because they are not shown in the photos. They may or may not be there. Not trying to start trouble but when uniformed folks make false statements I feel obligated to protect new collectors from making a bad decision.

06-03-2016, 09:15 PM	#3
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 796 Thanks: 403 Thanked 639 Times in 338 Posts	I am here to listen and learn. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

06-04-2016, 11:13 AM	#5
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Eugen. You said you were here to learn. Here are two photos from current guns on the forum. The first shows a unmolested side plate. Notice how the raised portion of the plate blends into the flat surface. No steps or marks to indicate any attempt to modify the surface. Second photo: Notice the step where the raised portion is supposed to blend into the flat surface. There is a step above the raised portion that shows the left side of the plate to be higher than the right side. This didn’t leave the DWM factory like this. From here on using only the photo is all opinion. The side plate has been ground down to remove something. A blemish, a serial number, or???. The finish appears splotchy as being touched up. All original side plates should look like the first photo as far as metal relationship and metal finish, not talking about bluing. There are different shaped side plates depending on when and who made them i.e. early DWM and Swiss and others. However, if you notice sand, grind, file marks and/or steps in the surface finish this is due most likely to somebody attempting to modify it in some way. Perhaps others can show photo examples that will explain this better. Attached Images

06-04-2016, 11:37 AM	#7
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 490 Times in 251 Posts	Here is a photo of the re-blued side plate from my '38 shooter. It is an aftermarket part, originally had a rough salt blue finish which was removed and the part was then rust blued. I paid for the work and am therefore certain of this description. The sanding line is quite visible above the side plate 'hump'. Attached Images

06-04-2016, 12:15 PM	#9
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Another example from forum post of unmolested side plate. See how raised portion blends into the side plate. Attached Images

06-03-2016, 08:30 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Maybe a few good photos would clear things up? dju

06-04-2016, 10:53 AM	#4
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Thank you for opening this thread! David

06-04-2016, 11:21 AM	#6
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 490 Times in 251 Posts	In an oblique photo of the barrel, and also on the receiver serial, there seem to be halos. I don't know if Artillery pistols are supposed to show halos on the receiver serial. Photos I'm referring to are in this thread. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...very-fortunate Overall I believe better and more complete photos would be appropriate given the asking price. Regarding the side plate I also suspect re-blue, because I actually have a re-blued side plate on a shooter that has a similar line, added when the part was re-blued. In this thread, the seller asks questions about a 1917 Artillery stock. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...er-Stock-legal However the pistol is marked 1916 and in the 'sale' thread I don't see any mention of selling a stock/holster with the pistol, puzzling. Personally if paying +$4,000 for any collectible firearm I would require either a pre-sale personal inspection or an expert assessment.

06-05-2016, 08:31 AM	#10
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	This discussion has taken on another life on Jan's forum. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...d=1#post407929