1917 Proofs

[sheepherder]

The pics below are of a mismatched Luger with a 1917 chamber date. I am curious as to what the proofs are.

The only one I can actually read is the C/RC, which in a previous post(s) both Dwight Gruber and Ron Wood identify as 'revisions commission'.

What are each proof, and what does the revisions commission stamp signify???

I'm sorry but I can't tell if one is a C/GB and one a C/F...The third one doesn't even look like a crown...Those scriptive letters really confuse me...

(BTW: The mismatched parts it came with [it was disassembled, PO had started to polish it] had both an Erfurt and a DWM middle toggle link...Any way to tell which is correct? It does have the 'notch'.)

[kurusu]

First, four inspection marks mean it was made after 1910 the leftmost inspection mark is made after the hardening of the receiver then it's marked after assembled and before the accuracy test then after it has passed the accuracy test at 50 meters, to the right the proof eagle after firing 2 over pressure rounds and 2 magazines in rapid fire. The revision mark means that somewhere along the process the piece was returned for improvements/repair.

The inspection marks are the initials of the family name of the inspectors under the crown.

Can't tell exactly who they were cause me and the gothic alphabet don't mix.

If it has the notch and it's marked 1917 it's probably an Erfurt. If it's DWM it started it's life as an artillery.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

First, four inspection marks mean it was made after 1910

- the leftmost inspection mark is made after the hardening of the receiver
- then it's marked after assembled and before the accuracy test
- then after it has passed the accuracy test at 50 meters
- to the right the proof eagle after firing 2 over pressure rounds and 2 magazines in rapid fire.

The revision mark means that somewhere along the process the piece was returned for improvements/repair.

The inspection marks are the initials of the family name of the inspectors under the crown.

Can't tell exactly who they were cause me and the gothic alphabet don't mix.

If it has the notch and it's marked 1917 it's probably an Erfurt. If it's DWM it started it's life as an artillery.

OK, let me line those up and stare at them for awhile until it sinks in...The family initials could be used to identify which maker if I could find another 1917 with notch and exact same proof stamps, correct? I can't read the Gothics either.

I am having difficulty with the 'revisions commission'. That is a government body, not a manufacturers quality control division??? I have Walters definition of it, but still don't quite understand what the commission did...It lowered the standards for military acceptance maybe???

[DonVoigt]

It is an Erfurt Receiver, it has the Erfurt proof eagle, noticeably different from the Eagle applied at DWM by the govt. inspectors who visited or were assigned there.

The Crown over initial were applied by individual inspectors, and is thought to have been the first letter of their last name, those with an underline, were when two inspectors had the same initial.

The "RC" was an Erfurt applied marking(usually, but occasionally seen on DWM pistols); which indicated a part out of specification but deemed by the primary inspector(or group) to be acceptable. Since Erfurt was a royal arsenal, the RC were govt. employees; same as the inspectors who visited DWM to inspect arms.

One does not see the RC often on DWM arms, likely because any substandard parts were not applied as DWM had to guarantee all arms to be first class.

Above is not my info, but gleaned from books and threads here and else where.

[Edward Tinker]

FAQ
11. What does the Crown over RC stamp mean?

Crown over N is the commercial indicator. No date on chamber does too. Most DWM militaries had the date on the chamber after 1910. The C/RC can be found almost anywhere on the pistols. I've seen it on the left side of the barrel in the rear, above the first inspection mark on the right side of the receiver, on the toggles and on the front of the frame. I'm sure I've seen it in other locations as well but don't recall exactly where. IMO, the C/RC is found on the part that failed to pass inspection first time around but was found to function properly in spite of whatever was wrong and was acceptable to the Revisions Commission.
The Crown/RC stamp is found on 1911 to 1918 dated Erfurts. The earlier the Erfurt the less frequently the C/RC stamp is observed. The most frequent location is the right receiver, followed by the barrel and frame. It has also been observed on side plates, and toggle links (based on observation of the photographs in Imperial Lugers). I agree that the pistol is a 1914 Commercial, and is a fairly hard variety to find. It is much rarer than the 1920's era commercials. It would not be unusual for the pistol to have been used in the military. The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country.

I like the above examples better and will change this - essentially the RC stamp means that it did not meet standards and it had to be approved by a senior inspector

[sheepherder]

Thank you, gentlemen!

So it is an Erfurt receiver but not an LP08. I guess I can live with that...

I just need to decide which middle toggle to put on my Mauser framed, Erfurt receivered, long-barreled mixmaster Luger...A DWM toggle would probably just further the confusion...So that's what I'll use...

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

FAQ
11. What does the Crown over RC stamp mean?

Crown over N is the commercial indicator. No date on chamber does too. Most DWM militaries had the date on the chamber after 1910. The C/RC can be found almost anywhere on the pistols. I've seen it on the left side of the barrel in the rear, above the first inspection mark on the right side of the receiver, on the toggles and on the front of the frame. I'm sure I've seen it in other locations as well but don't recall exactly where. IMO, the C/RC is found on the part that failed to pass inspection first time around but was found to function properly in spite of whatever was wrong and was acceptable to the Revisions Commission.
The Crown/RC stamp is found on 1911 to 1918 dated Erfurts. The earlier the Erfurt the less frequently the C/RC stamp is observed. The most frequent location is the right receiver, followed by the barrel and frame. It has also been observed on side plates, and toggle links (based on observation of the photographs in Imperial Lugers). I agree that the pistol is a 1914 Commercial, and is a fairly hard variety to find. It is much rarer than the 1920's era commercials. It would not be unusual for the pistol to have been used in the military. The magazine should have a serial # if military, blank if commercial and Germany if imported to an English speaking country.

I like the above examples better and will change this - essentially the RC stamp means that it did not meet standards and it had to be approved by a senior inspector

The crown RC mark was also applied when the pistol was returned for improvements. I.e. the inclusion of the holdopen in the earlier models, and the modification of the sear bar to the improved design.

[kurusu]

This might be usefull.
http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/i...hp/t-8129.html

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

This might be usefull.
http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/i...hp/t-8129.html

Yes, Thanks! Many of the examples/links are no longer valid, but the discussion was informative.

I will try to match up my three inspectors initials with the charts from Jan's site, just for S&G.

It also prompted me to recall Ed Tinker's compilation of serial number suffixes on the main site here. The buttons don't work but the links are still there, as noted in -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34813

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by kurusu

The crown RC mark was also applied when the pistol was returned for improvements. I.e. the inclusion of the holdopen in the earlier models, and the modification of the sear bar to the improved design.

I am sorry, I have never heard of an RC marking on modifications - I have seen where it is crown marked

The thread you shared talks about acceptance stamps

[sheepherder]

There's a LOT of Gothic and Fraktur fonts out there!!!

My best guess, going on this Fraktur font, is -

B P O

The crown on the second stamp is partly missing, so I'm assuming that part of the P is missing also...

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

There's a LOT of Gothic and Fraktur fonts out there!!!

My best guess, going on this Fraktur font, is -

B P O

The crown on the second stamp is partly missing, so I'm assuming that part of the Pis missing also...

You noticed, of course, that that combination isn't listed.

I wonder why the Germans gave themselves the trouble of inventing codes when they used an alphabet that no one but they can read.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

You noticed, of course, that that combination isn't listed.

It's my best guess.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I am sorry, I have never heard of an RC marking on modifications - I have seen where it is crown marked

The thread you shared talks about acceptance stamps

This is not just a crown, I think

[Mac Cat]

How about: G P O ?

[kurusu]

My best guess is:

ORP

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

This is not just a crown, I think
Attachment 56622

No, not just a crown, but a crown over a letter, tough to call on these small ones, C/G or C/C or C/some other letter; but they are all Crown over something- as is typical of the small Erfurt acceptance.

I'm sure that is what Ed meant, C/something, not RC/Crown/something.

[Edward Tinker]

correct, crown Letter - NOT Crown RC

We all say crown 'letter' but I read up to down, so RC Crown
(for the RC, i say it on purpose, because too many folks are confused)

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

This might be usefull.
http://luger.gunboards.com/archive/i...hp/t-8129.html

I especially liked Jan's points...Same as yours above, but expanded a bit...

The inspection stamps were applied in the following sequence:

1. Receiver hardened, the date was stamped into the receiver top at the same time.
2. Pistol ready for testing, the complete serial number was applied at the same time.
3. The test proof eagle was applied forward of the inspection stamps. This indicated that the pistol had fired two overloaded test cartridges without damage.
4. Pistol accepted after test firing; this indicated that the pistol had passed its post firing inspection. The barrel land diameter was added to the bottom of the barrel. This inspection stamp was applied to the left of the test proof eagle.